From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sat May 14 2005 - 21:16:59 BST
Howdy MOQers:
Ant McWatt said to Platt:
................................................................."the MOQ
view of freedom is different from the capitalist view of freedom." This
difference is implied by Pirsig's observation in Chapter 17 of LILA: "The
conservatives who keep trumpeting about the virtues of free enterprise are
normally just supporting their own self-interest. They are just doing the
usual cover-up for the rich in their age-old exploitation of the poor." The
latter is definitely not an MOQ sentiment.
dmb says:
Right. I think we can all agree that so-called capitalist economies exhibit
a certain dynamism, but let's not forget that money and the marketplace is a
social level convention. The freedom it allows is a social level freedom,
the freedom to go shopping and to sell things. And I think that liberals
object to this idea Not because we're opposed to selling and buying freely,
because many of us would like to score a big bag of kind buds, but rather on
the grounds that free-market freedom is a very small notion of freedom, one
that tends to cheapen the human spirit by commmodifying our every dream and
wish. Free-marketism in the actual world amounts to a gleeful endorsement of
consumer culture and all the various forms of exploitation that it
represents. To the extent that free-market arguments only justify what has
always been the case, the rich using the poor, then it is an intellectual
rationalization of tradition rather than a genuinely intellectual system. It
can get tricky when social level values get all dressed up in intellectual
clothes, but the naked reality can be exposed with a little effort.
Platt said:
Few conservatives have time to contribute regularly to this site because
they are fully engaged in doing and have little time left over for talking.
Ant McWatt replied:
Christ, this made me laugh. You do know that lies make Baby Jesus cry,
don't you Platt?
dmb says:
Yea, Platt. Stop telling ridiculous lies. You're making the sweet Baby Jesus
cry. Baby Jesus hates you!
Ant continued: .......The truth about the matter is that serious left-wing
people tend to be better quality thinkers, more tolerant, more caring, more
liberal, more generous with their time. These higher quality sentiments are
reflected by the MOQ so that is why anyone on this Discussion group
promoting conservative ideas looks very much like a crank. The great thing
about Pirsig in this respect, is that despite being very much against
right-wing ideology (being one of the original hippies in the 1950s), he
still took the best element of traditional conservative economic thinking
(namely genuine free markets - not the government supported ones we have in
the West) and incorporated them in the MOQ. A true pragmatist.
dmb adds:
I think one can see a broad/narrow split in the liberal/conservative
debates. The liberals want the UN, international law and international
cooperation in matters of national security while conservative favor a more
unilateral and nationalistic approach, for example. The liberal pluralists
argues with the "English Only" crowd. The civil rights protestor is at odds
with racial supremacists and seperatists. In a million cases, we can see
that liberals come down on the wider perspective, the global perspective
while the conservatives tend to be defending a particular nation, a
particular race or religion, a particular culture or worldview over all
others. And its no accident that conservatives are protecting thier own
culture, nation and religion. Its a view that doesn't or simply won't walk
in the other guys shoes. And if I may remind you, this idea fits quite
nicely in with the idea that Fascism is nationalism on steroids. The danger
of this narrow vision is that it tends to disrespect everyone else, everyone
outside the particular culture or religion. Liberalism and pluralism and
internationalism, on the other hand, rests on the idea of equality of rights
regardless of all those other loyalties, but in terms of individual rights
and the rights of nations.
And is there any doubt that the present administration has taken the narrow
view at every opportunity?
Platt asked Ant:
Pirsig attempted to "combine" capitalism and socialism and proposed
intellectual control of the economy in the name of "fairness?." That's
news to me. Can you supply some quotes to support that conclusion?
Ant McWatt replied:
Yes, I can. For instance, see the following paragraphs from Chapter 17 of
LILA:
............."It is not that Victorian social economic patterns are more
moral than socialist intellectual economic patterns. Quite the opposite.
They are less moral as static patterns go."
"That's the whole thing: to obtain static and Dynamic Quality
simultaneously. If you don't have the static patterns of scientific
knowledge to build upon you're back with the cave man. But if you don't have
the freedom to change those patterns you're blocked from any further
growth."
dmb adds:
I like fairness much better than unfairness. I have a hard time
understanding people who fell otherwise. What kind of person objects to
fairness? Don't we all, from the time we are toddlers, know the feeling of
outrage that occurs when confronted with unfairness? Isn't that something we
all know intimately and constantly? I don't understand the attitude that
would mock the "bleeding hearts" or endorse social Darwinism. I think these
people had brutal fathers or something. I'm going to go way out on a limb
here and say that fairness is a good thing and anyone who is against it is
one sick puppy.
I recently learned that 4% of Americans are socio-pathic, meaning they have
no conscience, no remorse, no compassion, no humanity. Maybe that explains
the Republican leadership.
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