Re: MD The Quality of removing Saddam Hussein from power.

From: Elizaphanian (elizaphanian@tiscali.co.uk)
Date: Mon Feb 10 2003 - 11:00:10 GMT

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    Hi Wim,

    Thanks for a substantial response. I'm not surprised that your views are
    'largely in line' with the Quakers - that much I had gleaned already! My own
    views are not simple, and were moving back and forth from one side to
    another for quite a while before reaching their now fairly settled state -
    which means that I am not without sympathy for what you say. Yet I still
    think that aggression against the Hussein regime is justifiable. Now to
    explain why, and precisely what I mean by 'justifiable'.

    I don't think I can explain my position properly without giving a little
    background in Christian theology, specifically what is meant by 'the Fall',
    for this is the background against which I am assessing this situation.
    (Atheist readers should look away now; there will be free use of traditional
    Christian language). The Fall, as I'm sure you're aware, is the expulsion
    from Eden as the result of biting the apple. In other words, we're not in
    paradise and we're sinners. This is pretty axiomatic for Christians (if
    there is no Fall, there is no Sin; no Sin, no need for a Saviour; no
    Saviour, no Messiah, no Christ, no Christianity). What this means in
    practice is that we live in an environment which is structured sinfully - we
    are embedded in practices which cause us to sin and there is no way for us
    to avoid sinning. More than this, we need to recognise this sinfulness as
    the first stage in moving away from the situation; put differently, it is
    recognising the light in Christ that allows us to see the darkness for what
    it is.

    Now, in a situation like the one we have at present with regard to Iraq, it
    is quite clear what the past patterns of sin are which have caused us to be
    'mired in sin'. Hussein established himself as a despot on the back of US,
    specifically CIA, support. Indeed, Rumsfield himself went to Iraq in the
    eighties as Reagan's special envoy, to provide - well, we don't know for
    sure, but chances are it wasn't agricultural support. Going further back,
    the UK is wholly complicit in the creation of Iraq as an artificial state. I
    think I am right in saying that the UK were the first nation to gas the
    Kurds (not Churchill's finest hour - I think it was the early twenties).
    More recently, the follow-through to the 1991 war was ill-thought and driven
    by narrow and unenlightened agendas. The West did not want to prolong the
    war and risk further casualties. Consequently we have the sanctions and
    inspection process which a) has not inhibited the Hussein regime, b) causes
    great suffering to the people of Iraq and c) broke down at the end of the
    90's.

    So we are now in a situation where the Hussein regime has been able to
    develop WMD in the face of repeated UN resolutions etc etc. The fundamental
    question is: do we do anything about this?

    It seems to me that the principled pacifist position is coherent. This says
    that the use of force is never justified; that there are various creative
    and non-violent ways to change the behaviour of those with whom we disagree;
    and that (as I feel this can only be responsibly held from a religious
    perspective) we must trust in God for the ultimate outcomes. Crucially, this
    perspective rules out *all* uses of force, ie all forms of coercion, and
    therefore - especially in the light of the last decade's experience - the
    whole sanctions regime needs to be discarded. Thinking imaginatively this
    discarding of sanctions would be accompanied by a huge multinational
    investment in Iraq, to rapidly advance the quality of life of the Iraqi
    people, to ensure that there was a change of heart on the part of the
    Hussein regime, so that they saw that it was in their best interests to
    maintain stability etc etc.

    As I say, I think this is coherent and also - to a religious person - quite
    a strong argument. Thing is, I can't bring myself to accept it. That might
    be due to a lack of faith on my part. I am fond of Cromwell's dictum: "Trust
    in God... and keep your gunpowder dry." In other words we must trust in
    God - but that does not excuse a lack of prudence on our part, for God also
    works through us, when we let him.

    If we follow the logic of the Gandhian position through, then there is no
    point at which we respond to force with force. This would allow all sorts of
    monstrosities to take place if the opposing forces were sufficiently
    motivated. Gandhi said (I paraphrase from memory) that 'it is a matter of
    faith for a satyagrahi that there is no one who is beyond the reach of love'
    (satyagrahi = seeker after truth). I think I do believe that, but I don't
    draw from that the conclusion that the use of force against such a person
    is always wrong (is always a lack of faith). Consider a hypothetical
    example: you are a police officer in the US. There has been a terrorist
    threat received against a children's hospital; you are on guard in a
    particular ward. Two men enter, both with guns. One moves towards you, the
    other starts shooting children. (Obviously I'm delibarately polarising this
    presentation to bring out the underlying issue).

    It seems to me that a Gandhian perspective would seek to put your own body
    between that of the person shooting and the children - to try and provoke an
    awareness of love and the right in that person. Yet the second man prevents
    you from doing this. So the shooting goes on. At what point does it become
    right to use force - to draw your own gun and shoot the person killing the
    children?

    You might say that this is too hypothetical and unrealistic, so let us
    change to a very real situation: was Todd Beamer right to lead a revolt of
    the hijacked passengers against the terrorists who had siezed control of the
    Philadelphia flight on September 11? I think that he was - indeed I find his
    story to be tremendously moving, and one that reveals a difference between
    the social quality of the typical US citizen and the typical UK or European
    citizen which is shaming to the latter. But that may be an ignorant comment.

    To my mind there is a fundamental contradiction between this Gandhian
    position and a traditional Christian one, and the difference lies in the way
    in which the traditional Christian view accepts the inevitability of
    personal sin - indeed, it makes it central and says that it is a dangerous
    illusion to think that you can be free of it.

    In the hospital example, to my mind, a Christian policeman would be
    perfectly justifiied in shooting the intruders as soon as there was an
    apparent threat to the children in his care, but - and this is where the
    distinctiveness of the Christian viewpoint becomes apparent -
    _it_is_still_a_sin_to_shoot_the_intruder_. The Christian viewpoint does not
    say that the use of force is righteous - it says that it is a failure, a
    failure provoked by all the previous sins in which all the participants and
    the wider society share. It therefore prevents an ideology being built up
    around the 'rightness' of that individual decision - for such an ideology
    would deny that there was any sin involved. Such ideologies are triumphant
    in the use of violence and ultimately fascist. The use of violence is always
    a failure and a cause for repentance. So there is a difference between
    something being 'justified' and something being inherently good or
    'righteous'.

    So - that's some background thinking. How do I apply this to the present
    context? Well, as I said, I don't think our present framework (sanctions and
    inspections) can continue. The sanctions a) hurt the people of Iraq and b)
    broke down due to their long-drawn out nature, the impact of a) on public
    consciousness, and have not prevented the regime from pursuing WMD. The
    inspections can only work if there is co-operation from the regime. I agree
    with Powell completely on this - you can treble the number of inspectors,
    put in troops, do whatever, but unless there is a commitment from the regime
    to 'come clean' then they will not be able to succeed in their task.

    It is still possible to argue, of course, that this process would be better
    than the alternative of going to war. That the risks and suffering attendant
    upon going to war outweigh the risks and suffering attendant upon not going
    to war. To my mind the key question is what would happen *after* the war. If
    the US/UK treat it in the same way as they have Afghanistan - ie don't get
    involved in 'nation building' then I think that the war cannot be justified,
    for there would not be a significant benefit to the people of Iraq, there
    would not be anything to justify the suffering consequent to war. Yet I have
    some room for hope when considering Blair especially, and remembering things
    that he has said in the past (especially his party conference speech in
    October 2001).

    Now, there is almost nothing that you and I can do to affect the eventual
    outcome of this situation - we can comment on it, give our views and the
    reasons for our opinions, but largely I think our opinions are just that.
    Moreover, those who are presently entrusted with making the decisions have
    far higher quality information available to them on which to base those
    decisions comapred to us. At this point it becomes a matter of judgement
    and, I would say, of character. The people who are making the decisions are
    (mainly) the leaders of the Western countries - Bush and Blair on the one
    side, Chirac and Schroeder on the other. (Leaving aside the point that
    Hussein could prevent war in an instant, if he backed down and owned up to
    his WMD stocks).

    My judgement is that Blair in particular is taking a principled stand, one
    not governed by short-term political calculations but one governed by his
    perception of what is right. I'm hopeful that Bush has a similar
    perspective. Certainly I see those two as having, how shall I put it, a
    certain amount of moral fibre in their characters. Blair is, I think,
    risking everything on this issue - there is a not insignificant chance that
    he will no longer be Prime Minister in six months time, as a direct result
    of the stance he is taking. On the other side I see Chirac and Schroeder
    who - how shall I put this - have not displayed much in the way of moral
    fibre. (I happen to think that their actions of the last few days have made
    war much more likely - they have given Hussein a great boost and
    strengthened his hope and belief in western divisions. I think perhaps in my
    first post there was an element of anger at such politicians for this very
    reason. Contempt is an unChristian emotion, and I'm trying very hard not to
    feel it towards them.)

    I don't know how to phrase all this in MoQ terms, beyond what I put in my
    original post. (If we are going to have some form of international order, ie
    a move towards the social, away from the biological, at the international
    level, then we can't allow rogue states to develop WMD, and the authority of
    the UN needs to be enforced.) But that, to my mind, shows how much richer
    the Christian language is, as a guide to clear thinking, and as an aid to
    practical and righteous living.

    Sam

    "Grace. It's the name for a girl. It's also a thought that changed the
    world." (U2)

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