From: Allen Barrows (allen_barrows@yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Fri Jun 10 2005 - 20:36:26 BST
4
I don't know if any more of it will do, but as I see it, this is some
effort (by Pirsig) to comply with ZMM's about theories being
nowhere before invented by some mind (Gravity nowhere before
Newton)
Isee Bo. That book is to be read in 1975 by common American people living everyday lives of work and play and hot dogs and all that common everyday American people go about doing. Mind they understand even though its not a good way of saying things and no books would be sold if they did not make sense to allot of people enough for sales. I think you are maybe too harsh here Bo and must take into account everysay people.
but he rails (rightfully) against SOM here.
Again i see but som is everyday day people talk even if you are not intellectual and it seems to me especially if you are not intellectual for the arguments i make above here. Because i said that the traffic lights are the social level and that is common people. som is taken by so many to be rock bottom because it is learned and imitated socialy from the cradle.
To say that subject and object come after a quality event is a good way of saying to american common people what they understand because american common people in 1975 need to be told that way. Which is a kindness i reckon bo.
SOM is
replaced by the MOQ and to re-introduce its premises in the
MOQ is disastrous.
Bo
It certainly would be if it were true but it isnt so its not a disaster Bo it seems to me. The MOQ comes from very old buddhist phenomenology like way of taking experience as primary but som begins with self and other of the social learned behaviour. Subjects and objects are not present in primary experience they are learned from the cradle much to our disatisfaction.
One can imagine how an infant in the womb acquires awareness of simple
distinctions such as pressure and sound, and then at birth acquires more
complex ones of light and warmth and hunger… he will soon begin to notice
differences and then correlations between the differences and then repetitive
patterns of the correlations. But it is not until the baby is several months old
that he will understand enough about that enormously complex correlation of
sensations and boundaries and desires called an object to be able to reach for
one. This object will not be a primary experience. It will be a complex pattern
of static values derived from primary experience. (Pirsig, 1991, p.137)
Thank you
Allen
PS
I notice this from another post.
Bo:
The intellectual level is as above the S/O ability, and what's
more: It's "out of society" and in conflict with it. Remember the
tenet of each level "going off at a purpose of its own"? Can this of
"finding food" and "detecting danger" have developed into
something threatening to social value? Even the manipulation of
symbols definition fails to meet this requirement. Only
distinguishing between what's objective and what's subjective
(and transforming social values into its subjective half)
When you say above the s/o ability i think you are making an aweful massive mistake bo. In social society being able to know who is good for you and who is bad for you is critical. If no one can value social difference between friend and enemy then you are in trouble. Now if your ghost traffic lights can act independently of social learned patterns and make a model of the world and test it out to make predictions then you are on the way to escaping learned behaviour of which self and other is a key feature. But the new modes of pattern behaviour ie the intellect have absolutely nothing in common with som.
so what is som?
The belief that self and other are basic to thought which zmm explores and reveals as a socially learned story which is true only as long as social patterns insist that is the way you should think. But the intellect is free of all that and always was because the mode of light winking in my little story shows how versatile and free of the social lights the intellect really is.
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