From: skutvik@online.no
Date: Wed Jun 29 2005 - 07:25:45 BST
Scott and other expedition members.
27 June you wrote:
> I don't know what you mean by "subscribe to the "intelligence"
> definition of the intellectual LEVEL", so can't comment on it.
I mean the skill that creatures (far down into the biological level)
display that enables them to learn from experience. This prowess
(intelligence called) is faultily defined as intellect.
> On mathematics, as Coleridge and others have pointed out, mathematical
> "objects", such as zero-dimensional points, perfectly straight and
> width-less lines, proofs, and so on, exist only when they are thought,
> that the thinking of them *is* the object, so there is no subject
> working with a separate object. An ancient Egyptian knew that a
> triangle of 3, 4, and 5 unit sides gave him a right angle. He did not
> know that for any a, b, and c, where a^2 + b^2 = c^2 one gets a right
> angle. He could not have the concept of an irrational number, and so
> on.
If If "the act of thinking" is defined as intellect and thinking about
imaginary numbers is non-S/O intellect, then people of old -
before intellect according to the MOQ - were intellectuals by
thinking about how to get the next meal, and pure intellectuals if
thinking about imaginary things, dragons and such?
When we calculate and/or do pure mathematics it's not intellect
but the said intelligence. It was at work when Phaedrus wielded
his analytical knife and found that intellect is the mind/matter
"prism". When at this MOQ site you are sort of committed to
speak moqish, so what is your explanation for that explicit SOL
statement in ZMM?
> Applied mathematics is not the same as pure mathematics, and
> calculating is applied mathematics. I do think that mathematical
> thinking would not have arisen without more general S/O thinking, but
> in itself, in the act of thinking, it is not S/O.
Already these distinctions "pure/applied" and "thinking/non-
thinking" are based on the S/O template and as you allegedly
believe that this was no part of the Original Participation era it is
plain that intellect as SOM corresponds to Barfield's "loss of
partcipation".
> Scott:
> I do not call you a materialist. I am only pointing out that you, and
> Pirsig, and most everybody, continue to work within a framework that
> is only required by materialists, namely, the belief that the
> inorganic existed all by itself, and then -- somehow -- evolved into
> the biological, etc.
This is also completely off mark. I know that you don't subscribe
to the MOQ, but when at this site the least requirement is to
understand its basics. First it rejects the S/O distinction as
metaphysically valid and because idealism/materialism is part of
that, it doesn't apply.
"Framework"? If you mean language, we can hardly stop using
words that carried a SOM-load before. "Belief ..etc." Here you
use the term "inorganic" with the said load and think that its
problem how matter spawned life applies to the MOQ. But
inorganic value is something else, as is the transition to biological
value, but ... phew ... I can't go through all that. Particularly not to
deaf ears.
> When you consider that all that we perceive of
> the inorganic through our senses is created only when we sense it
> (color, extension, etc.), and when you toss in quantum non-locality,
> there is no reason to persist in this framework, and good reasons to
> reject it, mainly because there is no "somehow" for sentience to arise
> from non-sentience, intellect from non-intellect.
Scott is on his lectern again. Don't you understand? All this is
about inorganic "out there" and us perceiving from "in here" is
INTELLECT the eternal objective world/the perceiving mind
dichotomy. But the MOQ is the system of which this dichotomy is
a mere sub-level. Speaking of pouring water over a goose, you
aren't even willing to understand what the MOQ is about.
Bo
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Wed Jun 29 2005 - 07:30:00 BST