From: Arlo J. Bensinger (ajb102@psu.edu)
Date: Thu Jul 07 2005 - 17:52:02 BST
Platt,
> Arlo:
> > I read the article. Some comments on his points:
> >
> > (1) America provides an amazingly good life for the ordinary guy.
>
> > We are, as Marx would say, confusing material possessions with power and
control.
>
> Why am I not surprised you call on Marx to make your point?
Just one example, we can always use the Amish if it better suits your ability to
discuss ideas and not rely on political propaganda.
The idea stands: Gauging America to be "better" by the amount of consumer goods
a person "owns" rests on the assumption that the more we own the "better" our
lives are. You agree with this. Me and the Amish disagree, along with many
others.
The idea stands: Material consumption is not an indicator, and holds no
correlation with, true power in one's life. Our "low-income" citizens own more
stuff than low-income citizens of many other nations. They do not, however,
possess any more socio-political power.
> I know. Marxists believe the ordinary guy is too dumb to know what's
> worthwhile and that the state should decide for him. .
Historically, it is easy to show that people are easily placated by immediate
rewards and responsive to xenophobic manipulation. This does not make them
"stupid" by any means. It simply means that people must both learn how and
decide to overcome their basic instincts. Isn't this exactly what organized
religion, Christianity, teaches people? Does Christianity, too, purport that
ordinary people are "too dumb" to know what is Good, that they must rely on the
Church to tell them?
> > (2) America offers more opportunity and social mobility than any other
> > country, including the countries of Europe.
>
> > This is, again, patently false. Study after study has shown that for the
> > *vast* majority, social mobility is a myth.
>
> What studies?
I'm not going to do your homework, Platt. When you are interested in seeking
truth and not patriotic propaganda, you'll easily find them. Social mobility
studies have been conducted since the 50s.
If you can find ANY that show significant class mobility in this country, please
let me know.
> You and Denesh simply disagree. My experience is that in the U.S. it's
> extremely rare for someone to consider plumbers, electricians, carpenters,
etc. as "underclass."
If its a "simple disagreement", that alone proves Denesh is not "right" but
merely "of the opinion". If that's the case, it hardly can be used as "proof"
by you that the majority of Americans are better off than the majority of any
other nation.
> > (4) America has achieved greater social equality than any other society.
> >
> > Since the author
> > presents this soley as "I believe this be true" without offering any
> > supportive evidence, I'll just ignore it. I know measures that can examine
> > the validity of such a statement, but since the author feels no need to
> > provide any support, why should I?
>
> What measures?
Again, if you were interested in verifying such claims, you could easily find
them yourself. You are, of course, not interested, or you would not have
offered such a baseless piece of patriotic dribble as "proof" of your point.
> > (5) People live longer, fuller lives in America.
> >
> > More lunacy. According to the CIA World Factbook, the US ranks ***46t*** in
> > worldwide life expectancy.
> >
> > http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html
>
> Another source puts the U.S. at 38, proving the unreliability of
> statistics you seem to rely on for determining quality.
>
Can you find any that places the U.S. in the top 10? Let alone the number one
slot?
Here's a lesson in Platt's reasoning for all who may be reading. He uses
D'Souza's aricle that claims, straight out, that Americans live longer lives.
Two studies clearly show this NOT to be the case, both placing the U.S. way
down the list (38th and 46th). Rather than realizing that this shows D'Souza is
"wrong", he says it shows statistics are unreliable and that D'Souza is still
"right".
> I fail to see any special value in "diversity."
Why? D'Souza obviously does.
> Where are your statistics to show that diversity makes for a higher quality
society?
Statistics and measures are unreliable, Platt. I say it is "true" and so it is.
If you support D'Souza's use of this type of "logic", then why do you ask me
for critical proof? Especially when I am agreeing with your author.
> > The remaining "assertions" I find so laughable as to be unworthy of
> > comment. For those that may not have viewed the article:
>
> I find your "unworthy of comment" comment to be laughable.
Can you support ANY of his remaining comments in any way, using anything OTHER
than "this is my tenaciously held belief". If you find them worthy of comment,
as I did not, please feel free to show me ANY support for them whatsoever.
> Again, statistics are unreliable measures of quality. For every study
> purporting to prove one thing you can usually find another study proving
> the opposite.
Which means there is nothing but opinion. Which means that you can make no claim
that America is "better". You can only claim "I believe America is better". And
if someone claims, for example, in response "I believe Denmark is better", all
you can say is "We are of differing opinions. We cannot say who is right. All
we can do is believe what we want to believe".
If this is what you are saying, Platt. Then from now on every statement you make
as to America's superiority I will read as prefixed with: "I have no support of
this statement, it is only a matter of unquestioned patriotic belief,
tenaciously adhered to because I want it to be true..."
Once we establish that your patriotic insertions onto this list are nothing more
than admittedly unsubstantiated opinion held out of a need to blindly love
one's country, then we'll have come a long way.
> Global warming is a case in point.
Oh, brother.
> About the only statistic
> I find meaningful in terms of social quality are the numbers of men and
> women who have fought and currently fight the enemies of freedom, most
> especially the 3000 or so rag tag soldiers Continental Army who in 1776
> saved the revolution from defeat by a victory at Trenton.
Really? Percent living below poverty says nothing about social quality? Literacy
rate? Homelessness? Disposable income? Free time? All mean nothing? Very
telling.
> I've been to Prague, Venice and Florence and agree with Pirsig.
You must not have been to the same Prague as I was. Tell me, what did you find
"dull" about it?
Arlo
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