From: Brent Vizeau (philmajor@hotmail.com)
Date: Tue Jul 19 2005 - 04:29:16 BST
>dmb says:
>I suppose civility and sarcasm both have their places. I think real the
>danger lurking behind either extreme is censorship. Too much heat will tend
>to shut people up, but so will too much restraint. Take the exchange
>between
>Mark and Erin, for example. As I see it, Mark knows how to make a case and
>he knows how to criticize those who can't or won't make a case in return.
>"Arrogant" is just what you call a guy that makes you feel stupid and I
>think Erin just wants to stop feeling stupid. She wants the criticism to
>stop so she pretends its Mark's fault that Platt can't make a case, as if
>this were some character flaw on Mark's part. That's ridiculous. Erin acts
>as if the MOQ had nothing to say about politics or religion and all views
>are equally valid within it. That view is simply incorrect. And if you
>think
>otherwise, then make your case. I haven't seen one yet, but that's probably
>because it CAN'T be made.
>
>One can't avoid criticism in a philosophical forum such as this by simply
>insulting the critic or making emotional appeals about hurt feelings. One
>can make a case or not. You put up or shut up. You can actually address and
>answer the criticism or simply whine about it. Which do you think is gonna
>fly around here? Duh! That's all we can do. I think its that simple. I also
>think its completely unreasonable to expect that heated debate and
>passionate arguments can be avoided here. And what a bore it would be even
>if we could.
>
>Show me a guy who steps into a boxing ring and then complains when the
>other
>guy takes a swing at him and I'll show you a guy who has no idea what he's
>gotten himself into. If you can't take a punch, take up another sport.
>Don't
>get in the ring. But for god's sake don't ruin the game for the rest of us.
>
>And no, I'm not suggesting that anyone be asked to leave. I'm just saying
>that it has to be accepted or rejected for what it is. This is an
>intellectual forum and as such anything or anyone that interferes with our
>ability to be open, honest and direct in our exchanges is our enemy.
>Sometimes that is going to mean that people get upset. So what? We're all
>adults here and metaphysics ain't for children. Can we agree on that?
>Personally, I have loads of respect for my enemies. If I'm on your back
>constantly, its a good bet that I take you quite seriously. (Isn't that so,
>Matt?) If I only attacked those who seemed philosophically weak and
>unpersuasive, then I would merely be a cowardly bully and not a boxer in a
>real fight. Right?
>
>Oddly perhaps, I think the calls for politeness and civility are usually a
>call for self-censorship. I think its a way of asking your opponent to
>throw
>the fight, take a dive or otherwise corrupt the game. Not always. I'm not
>saying that nobody has ever crossed the line or that there's anything wrong
>with being nice, but usually calls for civility just looks like emotionally
>manipulative bullshit. Usually it comes from those who are far too
>concerned
>with their own hurt feelings and who wants to put that concern over and
>above the substance of the matter.
Brent says: Just as the Zen archer and Pirsig's craftsman, are concerned
with how they "do" things (or practice their craft) or how Henri Poincare
says that there are numerous ways to come about a proof - but he chooses his
way by its aesthetic value or harmony, we too, as philosophers should
practice our craft with this dynamism and concern for harmony in mind.
Argue, sure. But sometimes people seem to lose sight of why we are here.
DMB:
>usually calls for civility just looks like emotionally
>manipulative bullshit. Usually it comes from those who are far too
>concerned
>with their own hurt feelings and who wants to put that concern over and
>above the substance of the matter.
Brent: Usually...maybe. In this case, no.
Cheers!
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