From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Wed Jul 20 2005 - 04:25:29 BST
Scott, Paul,
Scott said "That may make Paul right de jure, but not de facto. Philosophy is
mostly arguing over definitions."
Ian - But we're not arguing definitions here, just the fact that
Pirsig wrote the MoQ as people were intended to read it - that's the
not-complicated bit. Whether the MoQ is right or wrong or can be
improved upon is another matter - the complicated bit.
Scott said : "I've given my reasons for why there is no "coming to be"
in re intellect,
sentience, and consciousness. Doesn't it seem that those reasons need to be
rebutted first?"
Ian - Sorry, no it doesn't. I prefer to build (constructively) from
ground of mutual agreement, not some speculation you have and I don't.
(There is ample evidence of intellect coming to be ...)
Scott said [of evolution] : "I know of no evidence for calling it a fact."
Ian - So why your interest in the MoQ at all ? (I generally choose to
be dismissive of people who take the "evolution is just a theory"
stance, as you may have noticed. Especially as the MoQ is clearly a
Darwinian evolutionary model. Please let's not retreat to ground zero
again.)
Scott asked "Do you agree or disagree with my claim that the
inorganic, biological, and social levels are different manifestations
of conscious semiosis?"
Ian - Silly question - I completely disagree, until we get to
socio-cultural-intellectual levels.
Scott : 1. All is quality interactions of information.
Ian - OK
Scott : 2. It is meaningless to call an interaction informational (and valuable)
unless there is informing, which implies awareness of the informing.
Ian - No such implication.
Scott : 3. Semiosis is informational interaction
Ian - The meaning / semiosis only arises with the benefit of conscious
hindsight. Until then all we have is "fit" or quality.
Scott : 4. Since informational interaction implies awareness of the
informational
interaction, all is conscious semiosis.
Ian - See 2 and 3.
Scott asked : "Where does [the MoQ] provide an account (an answering
of "how") to emergence of sentience, or language, or intellect?"
Ian - But that's exactly what MoQ is ... an account of how biological
is built on inorganic, social built on biological, intellectual built
on social. Sentience, language, intellect etc arise in the higher
levels. It is an account of evolution. Why look for anything more
complicated ?
Ian
On 7/20/05, Scott Roberts <jse885@cox.net> wrote:
> Ian,
>
> Ian said:
> In a sense (but not a very useful one) yes these e-mails are build out
> of "quality interactions of information". BUT the gap in levels
> between the "quantum" interactions and these e-mails is so huge that
> the former is of little value explaining the latter, except through a
> cosmically long story of evolution and emergence through levels.
> (Arm-waving for short, but truth in fact.)
>
> Scott:
> I know of no evidence for calling it a fact. But leaving that aside, you
> haven't answered my question, so let me rephrase it. Do you agree or
> disagree with my claim that the inorganic, biological, and social levels are
> different manifestations of conscious semiosis? If you disagree, how do you
> respond to the following argument:
>
> 1. All is quality interactions of information.
> 2. It is meaningless to call an interaction informational (and valuable)
> unless there is informing, which implies awareness of the informing.
> 3. Semiosis is informational interaction
> 4. Since informational interaction implies awareness of the informational
> interaction, all is conscious semiosis.
>
> Ian said:
> Which is exactly what MoQ provides (and why I'm here).
>
> Scott:
> Where does it provide an account (an answering of "how") to emergence of
> sentience, or language, or intellect?
>
> - Scott
>
>
>
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