From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Tue Jul 26 2005 - 14:35:03 BST
Hi Arlo,
> [Arlo previously]
> I'd disagree only in that I think some services should never be denied an
> individual because a majority votes against it. EMT serives I would propose
> is one such item.
>
> [Platt]
> I presume there are viable communities in the world without EMT services. I
> don't see EMT services as any sort of "right." A right that imposes on
> obligation on another is not a right, it's a wish. "Rights" in America
> refer to limitations on government, as in the "Bill of Rights."
>
> [Arlo]
> Just as there are presumably "viable" communities that are without common
> lands and community supported access to information. What I'm saying is a
> society based on MOQ morality would provide life-saving services to its
> citizens. I take this directly from Pirsig's talk on capital punishment,
> and how the MOQ values each and every life.
The MOQ values each and every life? I don't know where you get that from.
After all, the Giant regularly devours life to serve its purposes and in
some cases the MOQ says it should.
> Therefore, I do not think that it is MOQ practice to allow a majority to
> vote this away from any citizen. Do you disagree? Do you feel the MOQ would
> allow a majority to "vote away" life-saving services from any citizen?
I think the MOQ would rather have a majority vote against life saving
services than have a static government program set in stone by a small
elite minority who think they know best, including you and me. :-)
> MSH has stated that there are life-saving services that are not
> specifically EMT related. Dialysis (not sure if I spelled that right) for
> example. Do you feel the MOQ would support a majority voting NOT to provide
> life-saving dialysis to someone incapable of paying the capital cost?
Yes. The MOQ believes in democracy except when intellectual rights, which
have nothing to do with one's ability to pay, are threatened. As said
before, you have the right to travel, but that doesn't mean I have to buy
your ticket. You have a right to speak, but that doesn't obligate Bill
Moyers to put you on his (now defunct) show. You may get hit by a truck,
but that doesn't place a duty on your neighbor to pay your hospital bills.
> [Arlo previously]
> But this does get back to "who" decides what is "life saving" and what is
> "life enhancing". If its not a "community vote", it has to be
> something/someone. The Supreme Court?
>
> [Platt]
> The people should decide. The role of the Supreme Court is to interpret the
> U.S. Constitution, not to decide such issues as the difference between life
> saving and life enhancing.
>
> [Arlo]
> Well, we're not talking about the way things are, but the way they would be
> under MOQ morality.
I don't think MOQ morality requires that we change the duties of the
Supreme Court. :-)
> [Arlo]
> I am suggesting it is a moral imperative within the MOQ to provide
> life-saving services. That these are not subject to social pattern control,
> but must be provided even if it threatens to destroy the society itself.
I find no such moral imperative in the MOQ.
> [Platt]
> Pirsig also had something to say about rights. "It says that what is meant
> by "human rights" is usually the moral code of intellect-vs. -society, the
> moral right of intellect to be free of social control." (Lila, 24)
> Government programs of life-saving services are a form of social control.
>
> [Arlo]
> I'm not sure I follow your logic on that last statement. First, the MOQ
> supports the need for "social control."
Yes, to save itself from threats by lower level biological forces --
"drugs, adultery, murder, theft and the like."
> Second, "life saving services" do
> not threaten "intellect". Indeed, they support it! How is providing life
> saving services violating the "moral right of the intellect to be free of
> social control"?
They don't if the social control they invoke (rules and regulations) have
been been put in place democratically. To be put in place by fiat
threatens intellect as does any command from a dictator. I'm sure you'll
agree with me that our MOQ moral society should be a democratic one.
>Again, life saving services supports the intellectual
> level by maximizing the chances of evolution.
Persuade the populace of that and I have no objection.
Platt
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