From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Sun Jul 31 2005 - 03:03:47 BST
Marsha, Gav, et al,
Good point, back to the philosophy and away from the specifics of
politics and war.
Zen tends to get lost in these "binary" debates, one of the reasons
I'm always pleading we should drop them. I see Zen as the antidote to
dead (and debilitating) logic. A way of breaking the logical
confort-zone of "traditional" reasoning.
To quote Doug Hofstadter
Zen is holism, carried to its logical extreme. If holism says that
things can only be understood in wholes, not as sums of their parts,
Zen goes one further in maintaining that the world cannot be broken
into parts at all" [by the duality of the words we subjects use to
name distinct objects within it.] "Zen, eg in its koans, is trying to
break the mind of logic."
The way I see it, Zen breaks this logical comfort zone, but doesn't
itself provide any real alternative "tools", in the pragmatic world,
other than providing a more enlightened basis to start from. To study
it is to miss the point of it. The "way" is unattainable, To name it
is to lose it. etc.
Gav said of the MoQ
"of primary importance in the MOQ is DQ/sq split: the code of art. how
we break sq down is always going to be secondary to this and, as is
the nature of 'things', always open to interpretation...and argument."
I would say "... and change ... and evolution" too.
The point I keep making is that it's not the specific layers and
latches in the MoQ that matter, but their "toplogy" - the way things
are organised, interacting, not the things themsleves - they come and
go with time.
Ian
On 7/31/05, MarshaV <marshalz@charter.net> wrote:
>
> Dear Wim,
>
> I do think Zen has practices to dissolve low value static quality in one's
> own thinking. These same practices can strengthen high value static
> quality, and that may allow movement towards Dynamic Quality. The
> practices are a process that are not likely to become static quality. Any
> religiosity does not need to be adopted. In Chapter 24 which is presently
> under discussion, Phaedrus defines good, "What's good is freedom from
> domination by any static pattern, but that freedom doesn't have to be
> obtained by the destruction of the patterns themselves." Meditation and
> mindfulness are very dynamic processes. I also think meditation and
> mindfulness are very much processes of the Intellectual Level.
>
> I am surprised you never felt a curiosity to investigate Zen Philosophy?
>
> Thank you for your thoughtful response.
>
> MarshaV
>
>
> At 03:47 PM 7/30/2005 +0200, you wrote:
> >Dear Marsha,
> >
> >You wrote 30 Jul 7:41 -0400:
> >"I read of the conflict between the levels and identifying with a dominant
> >level. But where is the Dynamic Quality that Zen offers? Where is the
> >turning away from, the letting go of, attachment.
> >Where are the instructions, methods and suggestions to reach the place for
> >experiencing that everything is connected to everything and a broader
> >perspective? And how can this be cultivated in ourselves and offered to all
> >in the Social and Intellectual levels?"
>
> >I don't know about Zen, but I agree that you won't find the Dynamic Quality
> >that measures and thereby connects all static quality if you only look for
> >conflicts between levels of static quality and for which patterns are
> >highest and dominant within and between levels.
>
> >Yet "instructions, methods and suggestions to reach the place for
> >experiencing that everything is connected to everything and a broader
> >perspective" are just more social and intellectual static quality.
>
> >You can only cultivate Dynamic Quality by looking for ... static quality, by
> >seeing its steady change, its migration towards ... Dynamic Quality, despite
> >conflicts, despite even harmony within and between levels.
>
> >There's no place to experience it but here and now and everywhere. There's
> >no method for it but by experiencing Quality in its contradictory (static
> >and Dynamic) identity. It doesn't need instruction, suggestions and being
> >offered. It is there for everyone already.
>
> >One turns away from and lets go of attachment to any particular static
> >pattern of value as soon as one sees the whole pattern of migration of them
> >all. When you experience the static in the Dynamic and the Dynamic in the
> >static, you identify with the whole, the One, with Quality as such.
> >
> >With friendly greetings,
> >
> >Wim
>
>
>
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