From: Mati Palm-Leis (mpalm@merr.com)
Date: Tue Aug 02 2005 - 05:15:15 BST
Arlo, and others,
Arlo:
But the question for me is to have funding match objectives. Platt had
suggested that we fund public education through 12th grade. I had offered a
brief history that outlined education objectives, how they started off being
primarily academic, but began including vocational skills as well. Dewey had
argued against this, and wanted a more academic, creative curriculum.
Mati: Dewey was a really complicated guy and isn't as appreciated in our own
educational profession as he should be. I have read some of his work and
not to be over simplistic I believe he advocated for the intellectual
development based on the reflection of experience. I don't know that he
would have just wanted to be more "academic" but rather more intellectual
and that would have extended, I believe to all educational endeavors
including "vocational" as well as "academic".
Arlo: It does seem to me that "12th grade" has become an arbitrary cut off
point forpublic support. Some (not on this list, but in general) argue it
should beextended, along with some European models that offer public support
through the Uni so long as the student maintains good grades.
Mati: It is all based on what you want to pay for(via taxes).
Arlo: So my question is, on what justification do we cut-off public support
at 12thgrade. It seems to me that the cut-off must have a reasoned
implementation. Do we extend it, cut it short, or selectively extend it? All
of these must be based on what purpose a public education would serve.
Mati: We have socially and culturally evolved to the way the system is.
There are pros and cons to make changes. But in the end, the level of
educational quality is pretty high considering the rules and expectations of
equity and excellence.
Arlo:
Platt has suggested that public education should focus on "intellectual
skills".Within the MOQ, I find this a tenable position. I ask again, though,
on what basis do we cut-off public support at 12th grade? Are we arguing
that at that point, people have sufficient intellectual skills as to be
beneficial to society? They may, I'm just asking.
Mati: With all due respect, define "intellectual skills". Heck we can't even
agree about the basis of intellect. So to suggest that this is even a
"tenable position" is a bit of a stretch. Though I will put in my two cents
and again suggest that Bo's, SOL, is extremely credible contender for
defining intellect.
Arlo:
I also think the MOQ would support the idea of arts and music in public
education (more on this later), and would emphasize these in parallel with
intellectual skills, not just as "electives" or peripheral courses.
Mati:
I couldn't agree with you more, but again American system see this as "Fluff
stuff" and when you HAVE TO CUT lets say $400,000 from the budget and still
maintain the system guess what program is the first to go?
Arlo:
I think the MOQ does support the ideal that all citizens would be educated
to participate in furthering intellectual evolution. But should we make it
so that participation is internally-driven and not mandated?
Mati: MOQ does nothing of the sort. American Democracy is based on "the
ideal that all it's citizens would be educated to participate in furthering"
the quality of life many of us take for granted as Americans. Citizens of
that democracy are obligated to participate with the highest quality of
knowledge and understanding that an education can provide. The freedom of
choosing to meet that obligation is the coolest intellectual thing about
that this system.
[Arlo]
I am involved in my daughter's school. I am also a vocal advocate here for
foreign language education. But I do not think that different schools have
fundamentally different purposes. They may use different strategems, but
since the cut-off is 12th grade across the country, the "purpose" is a
national mandate. The "no child left behind" initiative is a federal
homogenization of "purpose". But I don't want to get too far off base. My
point is only that"purpose" should come first, funding, how long, compulsory
attendance, etc, all must flow from this.
In a MOQ society, what would the purpose of a public education be? That's
where I am, what I think needs to be the first step in determining
everything else.
Mati: If you want a purpose your local school district should have a mission
or vision statement. This was a popular trend 5-10 years ago to define the
"purpose". You want a purpose that is correlates with MOQ, ok, the purpose
of schools is to educate all students. If it isn't flowery or deep enough
add some words. Funding and mandates based on that is purpose would create
more meetings and guidelines such as NCLB. NCLB is one of the most
brilliant political educational reforms movements that has ever been pulled
off. I sincerely take my hat off to the Bush administration for this one.
Why because they captured the purpose of American Education, "No child left
behind". There is no arguing for the clarity of this vision. What is
missing is meaningful dialogue as to how current funding mechanisms and laws
to support it. NCLB brilliantly defers any type of meaningful dialogue that
needs to be done at the local level to include parents and community where
it should be. Does that mean the Federal government can't help, nope but I
would suggest that we find our own boot straps to pull up on. All this focus
and purpose stuff is important, but it requires leadership and good people
to make quality education to happen. It is the educational experiences that
good teacher provides in the classroom in so many ways that is where the
quality is found. You can't mandate it because quality it hard to define
what a quality experience is. Hmmm sound familiar. ARLO STAY INVOLVED!!!
And you will find where quality is. I will dismount this soapbox for now.
[Arlo]
I agree with Platt too. But I ask, why do we cut-off funding intellectual
skill development at 12th grade? Why not continue it through college-level?
Is a high-school level sufficient for intellectual participation in society?
Is it a matter of fiscal necessity? Habit? What I'm looking for is a tie
between "public support of intellectual skills" and stopping that support
after 12th grade.
Mati: Interesting question. I suspect it is part of culture which is deeply
rooted in many different ways. Pirsig highlights the American Indian as the
basis for the American psyche of the rough, independent, live in the reality
of the moment type of attitude. I note this as a passive anti intellectual
attitude. America is also the land of opportunity rooted in the European
traditions of education and it's by product "intellect." I just finished my
Ph.d. and I noted the many congratulations I received with the caveat, "Oh
by the way, don't expect me to call you Dr." I wasn't offended by the
comment and I never thought or suggested that they should call me Dr. I just
found it interesting. In ZMM when Pheadrus takes on the Department Chair at
the University of Chicago there were many reading the book that were saying
to themselves, "Pheadrus go ahead and crucify that know it all son of a
bitch." There was a funny/strange, "anti-intellectual" duel of sort. So
there is a push/pull valuing of education that happens in America. Anyway
why 12th grade? Because like any social static pattern it can be like
concrete and tough to change. But technology is beginning to change that
and any 12th grader that wants to learn has the world at their finger tips.
I suspect that colleges will begin to enroll online 14, 15, 16 year olds, if
they haven't already. I don't ever think we will completely abandon our
current system but it will be interesting to see what happens in the next 20
years.
Take care,
Mati
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