From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Sat Aug 06 2005 - 16:39:12 BST
Hi Sam, and all,
On 6 Aug 2005 at 10:28, Sam Norton wrote:
Hi MSH,
> msh 7-30-05:
> Give us an example of an original idea. Better yet, give us an
> example of a stand-alone genius, since that's what this thread is
> about.
Assuming an individual contains both social and intellectual levels,
no stand alone genius can exist apart from their own social level
patterns; those social level patterns are by definition not exclusive
to the single person. So you can point to any original thinker and
say 'look at those social patterns, see he's not as unique as he
thinks he is'.
msh:
You can also point to his ideas and say they are original only
insofar as you understand them to be, within your own necessarily
parochial domain of experience. People claim that human fingerprints
and snow flakes are unique; this is weak inference stemming from the
fact that no two sets of prints or snowflakes have been found
identical. Same deal applies to ideas.
sam:
But I think that misses the point.
<snip Witt stuff, cause even he is no more original than a
snowflake.>
But it doesn't stop it being true that the source of a new idea comes
through a single person. Which is what I take Pirsig to be saying
about the brujo.
msh:
That new ideas must come from a single person has already been shown
to be false. New ideas evolve out of a culture and, as shown by the
examples of Newton-Leibniz Darwin-Wallace Salk-Sabine, can arise
simultaneously from within different people. There was no "first"
walking fish; I see no reason to expect cultural evolution to occur
differently.
As for the brujo, his ideas were new within Zuni, but old hat among
the Plains Indians, say. I think Pirsig agreed with Benedict here.
See my 7-29 post starting this thread. Or carefully re-read the
relevant 8 pages from LILA-9.
I think it's worth repeating here that I'm not claiming there are no
individuals; my claim is that no one individual is intellectually
unique and, therefore, worthy of special celebration. Where such
celebration occurs, it is a public relations con job catering to an
apparently common human need to idolize.
Finally, and most important, though individuals exist, none take
precedence over society. Only ideas take precedence over society.
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
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