From: Sam Norton (elizaphanian@kohath.wanadoo.co.uk)
Date: Sun Aug 07 2005 - 13:17:58 BST
Hi DMB, all,
I'm putting this in a separate thread as I think Ian's thread has many more
fruitful lines to enquire into than the red herring of theism etc (altho'
I'll say a 'final' remark in that thread as well).
DMB kindly sent me, off-list, a copy of his paper. Sam said:
>>I also think you're wrong about Christianity (as was Joseph Campbell), but
>>I've a feeling I've said that before.....
DMB replied:
> I sincerely wish you would make a case,
Sam went on:
I have tried! Compare and contrast:
From Campbell's THOU ART THAT: Transforming Religous Metaphor: "Already in
the 8th century B.C., in the Chhandogya Upanisad, the key word to such a
meditation is announced; TAT TVAM ASI, "Thou art That", or "You yourself are
It!". The final sense of a religion such as Hinduism or Buddhism is to bring
about in the individual an experience, one way or another, of his own
IDENTITY with that mystery that is the mystery of all being. ...it is the
mystery also of many of our own Occidental mystics; and many of these have
been burned for having said as much. Westward of Iran, in all three of the
great traditions that have come to us from the Near Eastern zone, namely
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, such concepts are unthinkable and sheer
heresy."
with the doctrine of theosis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis. (Or look
at any of the other Google links you could get if you don't trust wikipedia)
Campbell is simply wrong, and anyone who thinks he's right shares his error.
Far from being 'unthinkable and sheer heresy' the concept is "conceptually
foundational in both the east and the west". It seems to me that there is a
profound harmony between the different spiritual traditions on this point,
with the possible exception of the Protestant strains - which is what people
like you, Pirsig and Campbell take to be the sum total of Christianity. If I
could get you to understand that Christianity isn't the same as Protestant
Fundamentalism or Roman hierarchies we'd be a lot closer to understanding
each other!
DMB earlier also said:
... but I gotta tell you that Pirsig's
> reaction to the paper was very positive and that I feel pretty certain
> that he, Campbell and I are all wrong about Christianity in very much the
> same way.
To which Sam says: Yes. Exactly.
Which is why I think using the language of 'atheism/theism' etc is a
complete red herring and useless as an aid to further understanding - at
least until a sufficient number of people on this forum (ie more than me and
Scott) become acquainted with what the principal western religious and
spiritual tradition actually says. Otherwise it's just more stale tea
washing around the tea cup/ reproduction of urban myth/ replication of a bad
meme - choose your favoured image according to taste.
Sam
The New Testament can be summarised easily:
1. Unless you love, you die.
2. If you love, they will kill you.
(From remarks by Herbert McCabe)
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