From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Fri Aug 12 2005 - 01:56:41 BST
Hi Ant,
Ant McWatt commented August 4th 2005:
As far as Chomsky is concerned, if you could refer to a direct quote of his
which you are prepared to argue as being a falsehood (rather than relying -
as usual - on secondhand opinion “And what is good and is not good, do we
need conservative commentators to tell us, Phaedrus?”) that would at least
be intellectually constructive.
Platt Holden “replied” August 5th 2005:
Perhaps it would be intellectually constructive to give us some quotes
from Chomsky so we could critique them. I've presented a full page of a
speech he made while kissing up to Ho Chi Min in North Korea and haven't
heard an intellectual peep out of you about it. :-)
Ant McWatt comments:
Sorry, Platt I must have missed your undoubtedly balanced and accurate
“presentation”. You should have sent it in for the Conference ;-) All I
remember reading about Ho Chi Min and Noam Chomsky is Mark Heyman’s (usually
correct!) complaint from May 21st 2005 that you had failed to provide any
direct quote from Chomsky about this issue:
“Demand for evidence is ignored. No evidence provided. Ad hominem attacks
against Chomsky as well as other progressive thinkers and organizations
(such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch) continue to this
day.”
(http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/15230.html)
And, strangely enough, also earlier from May 1st 2005:
Platt:
And if that doesn't give you pause about Chomsky's historical accuracy,
check out his support of Mao, Pol Pot and Ho Chi Min and his initial denials
of their genocides which he later justified as a small price to pay to
establish communist regimes.
msh says:
This is deja vu all over again. Please provide direct quotes from Chomsky,
with references, in support of your claims above.
(http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/14944.html)
And so, around and around and around the Carousel of Faux Philosophy
continue to turns… (yawn)
msh 08-11-05:
Ant, FYI, I responded TWICE to TFP's posting of the Chomsky speech.
Here's what I wrote, including a link to the FIRST response. The
speech itself is posted beneath my sig block, so you can judge for
yourself whether or not it it supports "brutal Communist totalitarian
regimes."
msh 07-09-05:
Platt,
You need some new material You posted this same speech a year ago,
as "evidence" of NC's Marxist support for brutal totalitarian
regimes. I see no reason to waste my time writing something new.
For anyone interested, here's a link to my response from June, 2004:
http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/8950.html
One would think, among the many thousands of pages of Chomsky
material available on the web (not to mention his hundred books), you
could do better than this. I look forward to seeing it again next year.
As for the "Boat People" propaganda, the number is half what you say, from
three different war-ravaged countries, Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia.
During any war, refugees go in both directions, some fleeing the
conquering army, some flooding in behind it, back to their original
cities, villages, farms and homes, as in this case where hundreds of
thousands of people returned from self-imposed exile in the north.
The fact that you are unaware of this, that you know only of the
"Boat People," a story blasted wall-to-wall by the American
commercial media, is evidence of just how deeply indoctrinated you
are.
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
--
InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors
Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983
Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com
Speech by Noam Chomsky, originally delivered on April 13, 1970 in Hanoi
while he was visiting North Vietnam with a group of anti-war activists.
Broadcast by Radio Hanoi on April 14, and published in the "Asia-Pacific
Daily Report" of the U.S. government's Foreign Broadcast Information
Service, April 16, 1970, pages K2-K3.
"Yesterday and today, my friends and I visited Tanh Hoa province. There we
were able to see at first hand the constructive work of the social
revolution of the Vietnamese people. We saw luxurious fields and lovely
countryside. We saw brave men and women who know how to defend their
country from brutal aggression, but also to work with pride and with
dignity to build a society of material prosperity, social justice, and
cultural progress. I would like to express the great joy that we feel in
your accomplishments.
"We also saw the ruins of dwellings and hospitals, villages mutilated by
savage bombardments, craters disfiguring the peaceful countryside. In the
midst of the creative achievements of the Vietnamese people, we came face
to face with the savagery of a technological monster controlled by a
social class, the rulers of the American empire, that has no place in the
20th century, that has only the capacity to repress and murder and
destroy.
"We also saw the (Ham Ranh) Bridge, standing proud and defiant, and carved
on the bills above we read the words, 'determined to win.' The people of
Vietnam will win, they must win, because your cause is the cause of
humanity as it moves forward toward liberty and justice, toward the
socialist society in which free, creative men control their own destiny.
"This is my first visit to Vietnam. Nevertheless, since the moment when we
arrived at the airport at Hanoi, I've had a remarkable and very satisfying
feeling of being entirely at home. It is as if we are renewing old
friendships rather than meeting new friends. It is as if we are returning
to places that have a deep and personal meaning.
"In part, this is because of the warmth and the kindness with which we
have been received, wherever we have gone. In part, it is because for many
years we have wished all our strength and will to stand beside you in your
struggle. We are deeply grateful to you that you permit us to be part of
your brave and historical struggle. We hope that there will continue to be
strong bonds of comradeship between the people of Vietnam and the many
Americans who wish you success and who detest with all of their being the
hateful activities of the American government.
"Those bonds of friendship are woven of many strands. From our point of
view there is first of all the deep sympathy that we felt for the
suffering of the Vietnamese people, which persists and increases in the
southern part of your country, where the American aggression continues in
full force.
"There is, furthermore, a feeling of regret and shame that we must feel
because we have not been able to stop the American war machine. More
important still is our admiration for the people of Vietnam who have been
able to defend themselves against the ferocious attack, and at the same
time take great strides forward toward the socialist society.
"But, above all, I think, is the feeling of pride. Your heroism reveals
the capabilities of the human spirit and human will. Decent people
throughout the world see in your struggle a model for themselves. They are
in your debt, everlastingly, because you were in the forefront of the
struggle to create a world in which the chains of oppression have been
broken and replaced by social bonds among free men working in true
solidarity and cooperation.
"Your courage and your achievements teach us that we too must be
determined to win--not only to win the battle against American aggression
in Southeast Asia, but also the battle against exploitation and racism in
our own country.
"I believe that in the United States there will be some day a social
revolution that will be of great significance to us and to all of mankind,
and if this hope is to be proven correct, it will be in large part because
the people of Vietnam have shown us the way.
"While in Hanoi I have had the opportunity to read the recent and very
important book by Le Duan on the problems and tasks of the Vietnamese
revolution. In it, he says that the fundamental interests of the
proletariat of the people of all the world consists in at the same time in
safeguarding world peace and moving the revolution forward in all
countries. This is our common goal. We only hope that we can build upon
your historic achievements. Thank you."
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