From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sat Mar 01 2003 - 20:57:51 GMT
Matts and all:
Matt the EE said:
I think Pirsig's fundamental move is to redescribe reality, not in terms of
material or ideas, but in terms of value. Technically, there is no
material in the MoQ. There are only inorganic patterns of value. We
formally thought of these things as material objects, but the redescription
does away with that. Pirsig would redescribe neural states and mental
states into valuing states. But I don't read Pirsig as _reducing_ us to
valuing states. I read him as saying that some old problems disappear when
you do this (though new ones will certainly arise).
DMB says:
While its true that matter or substance is re-described in the MOQ as
inorganic patterns of values, I don't think we can go so far as to say the
MOQ denies the existence of material. Pirsig's attack is upon a METAPHYSICS
of substance, not substance itself. He's trying to overthrow scientific
materialism, the stance that objective physical reality is the bedrock of
the world. As to the identification of neural states and mental states, in
spite of the qualifications Rorty might make, I think this is inescapably a
materialist postion. I think Pirsig's analogy of the levels within a
computer works well hear. The neural activity in the organ we call the brain
is biological, but the mental states that are associated with it are either
social or intellectual. The phrase "mental states" is vague enough to avoid
such distinctions and could even be used to refer to sleep or coma, but I
think we have to presume that when we talk about the mental/neural
distinction we are talking about the mind/body problem. And if I understand
Pirsig correctly, he is saying that mind is not a product or property of
brains, even if the mind can't exist without it. As per the computer
analogy, the mind is like a novel and the brain is simply where the novel is
stored. They are two distinctly different things. Just as there is a
difference between paper and ink on the one hand, and fiction and philosophy
on the other. You get the idea.
Thanks.
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