From: David Zentgraf (deceze@gmail.com)
Date: Tue Sep 06 2005 - 03:11:48 BST
Hi Reinier,
I agree with what you're saying.
> But if there was no-one to experience the stove, would it still be
> a stove or just an object. Would it be an object when nobody
> experiences it, or would it just be molecules in some sort of
> order... would it be molecules?
Yes, it would just be molecules. Or rather atoms, or quarks, or
strings, or whatever the smallest element is that science came up
with to date. Objects are a pure invention of the human mind. As I
see it, in the end everything is just molecules (or atoms,
quarks...), yet this reality would be far too complex for anybody to
experience. So the mind summarises recurring patterns of these
smallest elements into objects and labels them. The bunch of elements
that look and operate like a stove are labelled "stove", though we
could also label it as "piece o' metal with small feet made to burn
wood inside for the production of heat for the sake of preparing food
and keeping the room warm" (not to mention that each of these terms
could be broken down even further).
So yes, even if there'd be nobody to experience the stove, the stove
would still exist in the sense that there would still be something
taking the shape of a stove, but there'd be nobody to call it by that
name.
Chrs,
Dav
On 2005/09/05, at 19:25, platootje@netscape.net wrote:
> David wrote:
>
>
>> Hi Reinier,
>>
>> I guess from your point of view we could stop discussing right now.
>> Since you're even differentiating between "your stove" and "my
>> stove" (or the a priori image thereof), we are all living only inside
>> our own heads and got no proof that there's actually anything real
>> outside of it.
>>
>
> Well, yes and no... my reality is in my 'head', yours is in your.
> But that doesn't mean that there's not a reality out there
> independent of our heads. The stove might be out there, but what
> are my means to experience it?
> I can look at it, this forms a visual image of the stove in my head
> I can smell it, this forms another image of the stove in my head
> I can touch it, sit on it, hence another mental image......
>
> But if there was no-one to experience the stove, would it still be
> a stove or just an object. Would it be an object when nobody
> experiences it, or would it just be molecules in some sort of
> order... would it be molecules?
>
> That's the real philosofical question here....
>
> The core proces of valueing can be looking or feeling (or anything
> else that let's us experience something).
> See, whether there is an a priori Stove or not, we can only discuss
> our experience of it. We cannot know the absolute reality of this
> stove (if there is any).
> The mistake Ham was making (IMHO) was that he said our mental
> visual picture of the stove was the absolute stove, which was an a
> priori stove, but the pain was a subjective pain. But I may be
> completely wrong, I still have to thorougly read Ham's reaction.
>
> So no need to stop discussing right now, plenty left to discuss.
>
> Best regards,
> Reinier.
>
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