From: David M (davidint@blueyonder.co.uk)
Date: Tue Nov 01 2005 - 18:40:03 GMT
Hi Michael
Can you detach yourself from your thoughts too?
But your experience is always your experience,
the problem with SOM is its neglect of this in
subjectless objectivity which we need to keep
constantly in mind is an abstraction from experience
as Pirsig describes in his books. But yes it has its
uses too, science to say the least.
DM
DM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hamilton" <thethemichael@gmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: MD Quality, subjectivity and the 4th level
> Hi David,
>
> You asked:
>> Do you see subjectivity as an activity springing up inside your head?
>> So that opposed to this is a world of passive objects and perhaps
>> other subjects with conflicting interests?
>
> Mike:
> No, not since I read ZMM. But the crucial thing is that I do still
> experience thoughts as MY thoughts. That's the essence of
> subjectivity, I think!
>
> I agree with your analysis (quoted below) of why SOM is inadequate and
> leads to a horrible and uncompredending kind of alienation. But,
> alongside "alienation", you also used the word "detachment", which I
> don't see as a terrible thing at all. It's a gift and a tool. I'm
> eternally grateful for my detachment, although I'm sure I'd eventually
> go insane if I couldn't step out of it once in a while.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
>> Well that's the unpleasant
>> and confused reality of SOM for you.
>>
>> My problem with SOM goes back to its inability to explain the reality
>> I actually experience, long before I read about Taoism, romantic
>> idealism,
>> phenomenology or MOQ as alternatives.
>>
>> I do not live in an alien world of objects in which I find myself as a
>> subject.
>> My world is entirely humanised, where all things and beings and
>> behaviours
>> are located in human in-scriptions, meanings, pre-scriptions, functions,
>> roles
>> and projects. Bits of metal are money, balls in nets are goals, going
>> into
>> a certain building is work, touching lips is an act of love, defining
>> financial
>> copncepts is intellectualwork, etc. This is the full range of static
>> qualities that
>> bring us up to the 4th level that makes modern society possible. With an
>> SOM interpretation of this SQ we cannot get a handle on what is going on
>> and how society and culture is possible. Worse we become just a detached
>> and alienated subject, apparently free yet powerless. MOQ is a means
>> to understanding that enables us to see how SQ comes into being, but also
>> how it is not inevitable or unchallengeable. That we if we can imagine an
>> alternative we are free to pursue it.
>>
>> regards
>> David M
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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