From: David M (davidint@blueyonder.co.uk)
Date: Wed Nov 02 2005 - 19:29:40 GMT
Bo
2 corrections:
Heidegger wrote about the need to find an understanding
of Being as that which is prior to the abstraction of subject and
objects long before Pirsig came along and that is just one
particular example there are many challenges to dualism of the SOM kind,
ever heard of monism?
Descartes I seem to recall talks about extended and unextended
substances not simply mind and matter.
DM
----- Original Message -----
From: < >
To: < >
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 10:02 AM
Subject: RE: MD Re: Quality, subjectivity and the 4th level
> Matt, Mike(?) and Multitude.
>
> 1 Nov. you wrote to Mike:
>
>> I'm not sure about your suggestions' fidelity to whatever it is Bo has
>> been talking about,
>
> Couldn't you manage a little more contempt?
>
>> but so much the worse for fidelity. I attempted
>> at some length earlier this year to unearth what the consequences of
>> his "SOL" were, but it almost seems like Bo's way of forwarding his
>> philosophy is to remain vague and never remained pinned anywhere, so
>> one could with a straight face say, "This is Bo's opinion."
>
> I have stated my opinion over and over again, but may repeat it:
> THE VALUE OF THE 4TH LEVEL IS THE SUBJECT/OBJECT
> DISTINCTION! What's the vagueness about that?
>
>> (DMB
>> recently said that Anthony's pretty much said the last word about Bo's
>> SOL and I can concur. Back when I first began my long excursus into
>> trying to understand Bo, I noticed that Paul, Anthony, DMB and I were
>> all in general agreement about what the weaknesses of SOL were, and
>> specifically Anthony and I were forwarding the same argument about the
>> fatal weakness--that SOL has a self-reference problem; it can't place
>> itself anywhere.)
>
> This is the "where does space end" quandary. The universe one
> lives in isn't "placed" anywhere, it IS. I pointed to this regarding
> the former metaphysics (SOM) that nobody knew of any SOM
> before Pirsig, it was how REALITY was assembled "from the
> factory" (and Anthony expressed his agreement)
>
> The Quality Universe (when it has replace the SOM Universe)
> won't - like its predecessor - have no beginning or end. You may
> have noticed that Mike and I have discussed how the MOQ has
> created a new universe while its intellectual framework remains
> behind as an intellectual pattern. Will that be acceptable to you?
>
> The rest of your post is for Mike and I won't mingle, only this:
>
>> But in relation to what you're suggesting about the inescapability of
>> subjectivity, unlike Ham and Descartes, I'm not sure what is so
>> momentous about that realization.
>
> Mike's point is that subject (vs object) is a STATIC level, one
> stage in the Q-evolution, and that it grew from the social stage.
> This is worlds apart from any som-ish view where "subjectivity"
> (read intellect or mind) is the starting point. Ham is of course hell
> bent on not understanding, while you ....? I must again repeat that
> Pirsig postulates that SOM originates with the early Greek
> thinkers. Descartes mind/matter variety is a late development.
>
> Bo
>
>
>
>
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