From: Case (Case@iSpots.com)
Date: Fri Nov 18 2005 - 18:27:41 GMT
Platt,
Nice post! Rather than respond in pieces I will just offer up some general
thoughts. With regards to the 4 levels I have argued frequently that they
are not discrete. One level does not arise, then divorce itself from levels
under it. The only sense I can make out of Pirsig's claims, comes from some
early reading I did of Michael Polanyi. He talked about the idea that while
humans arise from the physical world, physics can not predict the rules of
Chess. But this does not mean that the rules of chess can exist in a world
devoid of physics.
The issue of divine intervention is of course a perennial one. Buckminster
Fuller said once said, "Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think
we're not. Either way, the implications are staggering." I think the same
applies to creation. There is no discontinuity in our present understand of
origins. But I think in these discussions we neglect the inorganic and
biological levels. We even speak of them as the "lower" levels. I see no
possibility of understanding the "upper" levels without a better grip on the
lower ones. The continuous increase in complexity on Planet Earth is caused
by the constant inflow and capture of solar radiation. If we must speak of
God, let it be Ra.
For me at least the real issue with regards to naturalism vs spiritualism is
that most of the qualities the spiritualist ascribes to God are now ours or
certainly within our grasp. We can control our environment to the point that
we can destroy it. We can manipulate life processes, create new life forms,
even whole new kinds of beings from computer viruses to corporations. We
recreate the world in our own image. We create new worlds of imagination.
Certainly most religions attempt to show how man is created in Gods image,
or perhaps how God is created in ours. I find this attempt to project
ourselves into nature misguided. We introduce purpose into the universe and
the universe was doing fine before we got here and will do find if we elect
to leave. Purpose is so central to what we are that we can not imagine a
world without it. But the real question isn't what would God do, it is what
are we going to do now that we are Gods. Your term betterness can only mean
better for us.
I embrace your definition of miracle, btw. You mention a list of events for
which perfectly natural explanations exist and still call them miraculous.
They are that and beautiful as well. Even if no Gods are responsible for
their existence it seems to me that WE have some responsibility of their
future.
Case
Hi All: (Bo, Arlo, Scott mentioned)
Scott:
> > So do you claim that Pirsig used something other than intellect to
> > come up with the MOQ? Or must we treat the MOQ as revelation?
Bo:
> As said before, even if the MOQ is no level it shows some level traits
> in it relationship with intellect. So your question pertains to the
> general mystery what makes ANY level escape its parent level?
> "Objectively" (intellectually) seen it's plain impossible, but as
> reality shows (levels or not) life made it out of matter so Pirsig
> merely postulates a relentless dynamic tug.
> Phaedrus' first quality notion was an all-intellectual pattern, but it
> was caught by the dynamic tug and carried forward. So Pirsig definitely
used
> something more than intellect or - better - something more used Pirsig.
It's been awhile coming, but Bo has brought us to the crux of the matter--
naturalism vs.spiritualism. Although Pirsig vehemently denies any connection
between his metaphysics and the divine, the creative power of DQ--an
indefinable, mysterious force -- resides at the heart of the MOQ.
In an earlier post, Bo referred again to what I and Arlo long ago agreed to
in spite of of our political differences, namely, that philosophy is about
revealing underlying premises. As if on cue, Bo opined that the
subject/object premise delineates the intellectual level, that "gods behind
everything" premise defines the social level. Following Bo's focus, one sees
that the other Quality levels are framed by other, distinct premises.
(Inorganic level -- particles, biological level -- DNA) Standing above all
levels is the premise of an indefinable "Quality"
A closer examination of the premises of the lower levels reveals their utter
inability to show cause for emergence of the higher ones. For instance, at
the inorganic level the hidden premise is from nothing arises everything. At
the biological level the buried premise is non-life produces life. Other
sequestered premises at these "naturalistic"
(scientific) levels are: from randomness comes fine-tuning, from chaos
emerges information, from unconciousness appears consciousness, from no-
reason springs reason. In other words, one damn miracle after another!
So when Bo writes to Scott, "Your question pertains to the general mystery
what makes ANY level escape its parent level" he is addressing the question
every atheist must ask: "How do I explain the emergence of one level from
another without positing, as Pirsig does, a "dynamic tug?"
Once you admit to some mysterious force pulling rabbits out of hats, you're
into the realm of the spiritual no matter what you call it -- DQ, elan
vital, prana, psychism, God -- whatever. And once your into that realm,
you're into discovering who you are because, as Bo pointed out, "Pirsig used
something more than intellect or - better - something more used Pirsig."
I believe that "something more" is using us now, drawing us -- often in
spite of stubborn static selves and our load of cliche cultural garbage --
toward betterness. For me, Beauty -- another facet of the divine --
illuminates the way.
Best,
Platt
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