RE: MD A Question of Balance / Rules of the Game

From: Arlo J. Bensinger (ajb102@psu.edu)
Date: Sat Nov 26 2005 - 17:48:59 GMT

  • Next message: Platt Holden: "Re: MD Re: Quality, subjectivity and the 4th level"
  • Next message: Scott Roberts: "Re: MD Looking for the Primary Difference"
  • Next message: Michael Hamilton: "Re: MD Quality, subjectivity and the 4th level"
  • Next message: Platt Holden: "RE: FW: RE: MD Calling all atheists"
  • Next message: ian glendinning: "Re: MD Longer transcript of ZMM?"
  • Next message: Scott Roberts: "Re: MD Quality, DQ and SQ"
  • Next message: mark maxwell: "MD Biological emotion"

    [Case]
    Since semoitics seemed to me to be about language so I was wondering if nouns
    and verbs ever came up, as they seem to be a rudimentary way that languages
    carve up reality. Nouns being static things and verbs being dynamic action.

    [Arlo]
    Don't confuse "semiotics" for "written and/or spoken language". Semiotics is
    broadly concerned with three types of signs; iconic, indexical and symbolic.
    Nouns and verbs constitute symbols. As I said in one post recently, this is the
    triadic arm of semiosis that constitutes what most consider to be a uniquely
    human abillity (although the debate is far from settled or clear).

    Both "nouns and verbs", as "signs" attempting to capture some part of
    "experience" (or "reality" if you will) are "static". At least according to my
    read of the MOQ. That is, once experience is pushed into some form of
    conceptual container it is no longer "Dynamic", but a "static" representation
    (a "latch") of that experience.

    Simply, the very act of semiosis transforms the Dynamic into the static. And,
    according to Pirsig (and most semioticians), this tranformation is not "pure",
    but structurated by the very semiotic system into which the experience is
    transformed.

    That is, the "collective consciousness" determines the possible (and probable)
    way the transformation will occur. Eskimos "see" types of snow as wholly
    different. We don't. The collective consciousness we appropriate in 21st
    century American culture does not make the same distinctions salient, and so we
    "don't see it".

    Thus, the static latch that is "language", and the continuing historical
    dialogue that is the "collective consciousness" not only ALLOW for evolution to
    occur, but sturcture the evolutionary trajectory. We did not have the number
    "zero" in the mathematics that emerged out of European intellect. Not because
    Europeans were "dumb", but because it was not a necessary, or salient,
    charachteristic of their collective consciousness. The Arabian mathematicians,
    however, did have "zero". Intellect emerges out of specific social-cultural
    fields, and is shaped by what is available, and salient, within that culture.

    To get back to you statement that DQ needs to be defined, I'm think I'm in the
    camp that says the only way to approach such a definition is through analogy.
    You can't come straight at it (as Pirsig says in ZMM). So, in this sense I
    think that ZMM/Lila do provide a "definition" for DQ, but only through analogy.

    One interesting book I'd recommend is "The Creativity Question" by Carl Hausman.
    Among other things, it references the work on "metaphor" as uniquely capable of
    "saying what cannot be said" (my words, not Hausman's).

    Arlo

    MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    Mail Archives:
    Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
    MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net

    To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html



    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sat Nov 26 2005 - 20:43:49 GMT