From: David M (davidint@blueyonder.co.uk)
Date: Sun Nov 27 2005 - 19:49:04 GMT
Mike
Yet equally the content of your thoughts are very common in
nature and far from unique. The problem of experience is not so
much recognising that your experience is entirely personal but
that your experience is constantly changing, that you experience
new things, that the old things go away never to be experienced
again, that there is a world beyond your experience, and Others
that experience reality from a different perspective. Only through
recognition of the world and Others can you start to recognise
reflectively that you are a 'subject' and not an 'everything'.
Subjectivity/individuality is achieved through society & culture
and is not something immediate to experience.
DM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hamilton" <thethemichael@gmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: MD Looking for the Primary Difference
> Hi David,
>
> Mike:
>> >> My suggestion is that the subject/object divide is
>> >> fundamental to what we are.
>
> DM: What you are? Are you two substances then?
>
> Mike: I'm composed of static patterns of quality and DQ.
>
> <snip>
> DM: What does fundamental mean here?
>
> Mike: It means that for most of my waking life, I experience thoughts
> to be MY thoughts. Don't you?
>
>> My suggestion is that,
>> >> at the 4th level, Quality manifests itself as separate
>> >> intelligences who feel that they are separate.
>>
>> DM: Look like dualism emerges at the 4th level, so not
>> so fundamental.
>
> Mike: It is fundamental to us, as we are 4th-level creatures, i.e.
> thinking subjects. Otherwise we couldn't even begin to understand a
> thought system such as Pirsig's. But I agree that, in the metaphysical
> scheme of things, dualism is much less fundamental than Quality.
>
> <snip>
>
>> >> We can spend as long as we like thinking about a time and
>> >> a place in which the subject/object divide never existed.
>>
>> DM: But you don't experience any divide, not without
>> concepts of thingness, agency, body-identity, etc.
>
> Mike: My whole point is that I DO experience subjectivity, most of the
> time, however fervently I agree with Pirsig. If you deny that you
> experience subjectivity, i.e. if you deny that you experience thoughts
> as YOUR thoughts, then I will have no hesitation in calling you a
> liar!
>
> <Snip your other questions. If you feel I haven't satisfactorily
> addressed your position, feel free to ask them again.>
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
>
>
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