From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Tue Nov 29 2005 - 20:57:16 GMT
> [Arlo previously]
> If you are so anti-emergence, why are you so fond of an emergentist
> metaphysical hierarchy?
>
> [Platt]
> Because it was all there from the beginning and simply took time to
> flower, whereas for you it just emerged out of the blue..
>
> [Arlo]
> So there's the MOQ, sitting out in space, before time because there was no
> time. Having no mass because there was no mass. Sound to me like someone
> fell prey to the Aristotelian "The [MOQ] comes before everything else".
>
> Tell me Platt, where was the Intellectual level 4 billion years ago?
> Sitting around waiting for the inorganic to "flower", then the biological,
> then the social, so that it could finally apply to something?
First, the MOQ is a man-made product so it was not "sitting out in space"
but rather conceived in Pirsig's brain, something you can't admit. Second
there was no "before time" because it takes time to create. Third,
everything we know as reality today including experience was there from
the beginning. Otherwise no Quality, no DQ and no SQ "Although Dynamic
Quality, the Quality of freedom,creates this world in which we live, these
patterns of static quality, the quality of order, preserve our world."
(Lila, 9)
> Thankfully, Pirsig knew better, saying of how "intellectual principles"
> (individuals on the Intellectual level) emerge from "social activity"
> (collectivity on the social level), "These rituals may be the connecting
> link between the social and intellectual levels of evolution. One can
> imagine primitive song-rituals and dance-rituals associated with certain
> cosmology stories, myths, which generated the first primitive religions.
> From these the first intellectual truths could have been derived. If ritual
> always comes first and intellectual principles always come later, then
> ritual cannot always be a decadent corruption of intellect. Their sequence
> in history suggests that principles emerge from ritual, not the other way
> around. That is, we don't perform religious rituals because we believe in
> God. We believe in God because we perform religious rituals."
Yes. There is a sequence in growth. Some call it evolution.
> Finally, Pirsig said on the emergent relationship between the levels,
>"An excellent analogy to the independence of the levels, Phaedrus
> thought, is the relation of hardware to software in a computer." In
> your world, the software program was always there, waiting for hardware
> to apply itself to. In Pirsig's, it had emerged Dynamically.
Which can first, the software or the hardware?
Platt
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