Re: MD What's the Problem?

From: David M (davidint@blueyonder.co.uk)
Date: Sun Dec 04 2005 - 16:07:37 GMT

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    Matt

    When you talk about democracy in public
    and its support of freedom in an isolated private
    realmI wonderhow you think such democracy can
    be achieved or sustained. Does such an isolated
    and anti-social individual not lead to the death of
    democracy? Is that not what in fact we are seeing happen?
    Our societies seem more conformist and authoritarian than they
    did 20 years ago I would suggest.

    DM

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Matt Kundert" <pirsigaffliction@hotmail.com>
    To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 12:27 AM
    Subject: RE: MD What's the Problem?

    > Anthony said:
    > Well, even if mysticism assists in eradicating poverty in the long term,
    > it would be worthwhile. Moreover, unlike Christianity, in the short run
    > Pirsig's ideas can help you personally with your motorcycle maintenance
    > (and, as I'm finding out at the moment, some decorating)!
    >
    > I also think it's a good idea to distinguish between material poverty and
    > intellectual/spiritual poverty. For instance, materially the West is
    > first world status area (and, even then, not for everyone) while
    > spiritually it often seems like a third world one.
    >
    > Matt:
    > I can certainly agree that long-term things are still worthwhile. I can
    > certainly see that much of the wisdom of the East would be a good balance
    > to the consumerism that is widespead in Western, first world nations,
    > particularly America.
    >
    > The distinction between material and spiritual poverty may be a good one,
    > but I'm just not sure how to specify spiritual poverty. Whereas with
    > material poverty, there are very good, agreed upon ways to tell when it is
    > in evidence, I'm not quite sure what ways there are to tell the difference
    > between spiritual poverty and spiritual well-being, at least ways that
    > could be agreed upon. I know Robert Bellah (et al)'s book, Habits of the
    > Heart, tried to put its finger on America's spiritual poverty, but it
    > seemed overly Platonic in its search methods, forcing the appearance of
    > poverty in cases where I'm not sure it was there.
    >
    > When I flesh out what I might mean by a "spiritual crisis," I usually do
    > so by saying that the democratic nations have a crisis in self-image. To
    > appropriate Auguste Comte's stages, I think we are still in the process,
    > after moving from the theological stage to metaphysical stage between the
    > Renaissance and Enlightenment, in moving from the metaphysical stage to
    > the secular stage. To use Gotthold Lessing's Christian terms of
    > secularization, after moving from God to Christ, I think we are still
    > trying to move from Christ to the Holy Spirit. I think there are a number
    > of ways to put this "coming to terms" with the movement of the age, but
    > one is to say that we still need to come to terms with Darwin, and another
    > to say that we still need to come to terms with Mill. The first suggests
    > that we still haven't fully naturalized our philosophical self-image by
    > coming to terms with Darwin's radical suggestion that we are continuous
    > with nature. The second suggests that we still haven't fully democratized
    > our moral self-image by coming to terms with Mill's radical suggestion
    > that, as long as you ain't hurtin' nobody, what you do in the privacy of
    > your own home is nobody's business.
    >
    > Matt
    >
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