From: jhmau (jhmau@sbcglobal.net)
Date: Wed Mar 12 2003 - 20:41:53 GMT
On 11 March 2003 12:15 PM Squonk writes a Review:
Hi Squonk, Matt and All,
Words represent a pattern. How is the pattern derived? In SOM the essence is abstracted from an image and given intentional existence in the mind, creating subjective, objective existence. A 'word' represents that abstracted essence. When I speak a 'word' the hearer can only 'trust' that my mechanism is working properly.
When I act, the result of my action is certain. A judge holds me accountable for my actions. Under free-speech I can say most anything and not be held accountable.
As far as my actions go, sometimes I do what I do not wish, and at other times what I wish, I do not do. The certainty needed for actions is not always in my awareness. I know something I am not aware of, and I act from it, otherwise I would jump on my horse and ride off in all directions. A salesman can talk me into buying something. He triggers my associations which lead to action. The 'causal' connection between words and actions is something other than 'talking.'
In MoQ a pattern is formed from intuition and memory. No mind, no will needed! Free will is a thing of the past. Words represent that pattern - static quality. When I speak the hearer only 'trusts' what I am saying. I focus attention! A metaphor is not intuition, only a signpost.
Dynamic quality is perceived by intuition, an instinctive sensing of reality. It is certain. I experience it. Pirsig points a finger at dynamic quality. You figure it out! Squonk writes with passion.
Joe
Squonk: "Along the way, Quality becomes unreal. Is Quality real?
You have to explain Quality no matter how your organism responds to it? Or
are you telling the forum that the 'it' of the Zen master is not real?"
Matt: I'm not sure what you are saying that I'm saying here or where I said
any of this. Very strange. All I remember ever saying about Quality is
that it is the ultimate metaphor, we will never be able to know it, yet we
are always causally connected to it. Never have I said it is not real.
Quite the contrary.
sq: This is poor stuff. And once again displays ignorance. Everything that trots out of my mouth, your mouth, our language is metaphor. It is a short step from metaphor to, 'Talking.'
Talking has its pragmatic instrumental uses causally connected to consequences - for you, not me i hasten to add. But that is so far short of expressing what Quality is in ZMM and Lila as to be exceptionally lacking in value. That is why you write: 'I'm not sure what you are saying...' To you, i am 'just' saying, i.e. talking and using metaphor that you have no correspondence with - like an algorithm in a robot.
To state that Quality will never be known is diametrically opposed to immediate preintellctual awareness of Quality. Epistemologically, Quality epistemology is an analogue of the very thing it is concerned with; There are many philosophers who view intuitive knowledge as THE knowledge worth having. And intuitive knowledge is closer to wisdom than the cold porridge of your metaphor.
Causation is abandoned in the MoQ. The problem of causation is a metaphysical concern, so, you appear happy to use the metaphor of causation when it suits you, and yet you do not value the metaphor of metaphysics.
No sense.
You write without soul, without conviction, without beauty, without creativity, without wit, without humour, without insight, without Quality. You show no appreciation of non-linguistic art, intelligence, creativity, expression or insight. Your motorcycle exists in a thesaurus.
squonk.
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