From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Mar 16 2003 - 22:11:44 GMT
Matt and all:
DMB opens:
Thank you. You answered every question and the post I'm responding to
explains your guys and their ideas almost entirely without jargon. The style
is totally appropriate for this forum. Bravo. Standing ovation. Thank you
very much. Its exactly what I've been asking for.
Matt concluded:
The result of all this is that Reason and Truth are utterly useless in
justifying your beliefs to anybody else. So, pragmatists wonder what use
they are at all.
DMB says:
Since Lila was written only a little more than ten years ago, let's pretend
that Pirsig is well aware of postmodernism and has not failed to take it
into account. Let's pretend that Pirsig's MOQ is post-postmodern and that it
addresses your concerns. (Yes, I'm trying to draw you even further into a
discussion about the MOQ itself.) I think its true. I think the MOQ really
does take on the issue of the "web of beliefs". Its an area better studied
by psychologists than philosopher, I think, but Pirsig does pretty well.
Which reminds me,... My old pal Ken Wilber does even better with this kind
of stuff and his ideas are based heavily upon psychological studies.
Like Pirsig, Wilber describes both cultural and personal evolution in terms
of a series of stages, from animal to mthyic to rational, etc.. You'll be
happy to know that Wilber views postmodern thinking as not just a
philosophical postion or set of postitions, but as the next stage in
cognitive development. Its an advanced thought style more than a set of
beliefs. He calls it vision-logic or aperspectival network-logic. But Ken
isn't always so flattering toward pomo because, like Pirsig perhaps, he's
post-postmodern. He said,...
""Postmodern" is often given both a narrow and technical meaning, and a
broader and more general meaning.The narrow and technical meaning is the
notion that there is no truth, only interpretations, and all interpretations
are socially constructed. This narrow view we also called "extreme
postmodernism", because it take certain very important insights (e.g., many
realities are socially constructed) and blows them totally out of proportion
(e.g., all realities are socially constructed), which results in nothing but
severe performative contradictions."
DMB continues:
To put it simply, he's saying that there's an extreme postmodernism has
taken some very important insights about the contingent nature of beliefs,
blown them out of proportion. I have to say that this exteme form sounds
very much like your brand, or Rorty's brand. More of Wilber on this...
"So it is one thing to point out the partial but crucial role that
interpretation plays in our perception of the world (so that we can indeed
deny the myth of the given). But to go to extremes and deny any moment of
objective truth at all (and any form of correspondence theory or serviceable
representation) is simply to render the discussion unintelligible."
DMB continues:
The data doesn't change. Remember our recent discussions about matter and
then our brief chat about Pirsig's expanded empiriicism? I think that basic
stuff about how we percieve a glass of water says alot about the problem of
foundations, and that's just relatively simple inorganic stuff, but this
same epistemology really gets interesting when we get to the social and
intellectual levels. In fact, I think making a distinction between these two
levels makes a distinction between two different kinds of "webs of belief"
that seems to me exceedingly helpful in explaining things, sorting out the
various "webs". Hmmmm. Think of the web and spider imagery in the peyote
scenes. This is where our "socially constructed truths" reside. I don't have
my copy of Lila with me today and I only have a vague idea about where to
find Pirsig's thoughts in this area, but I feel confident that they are in
there and I want you to help me find them. Chapter nine might be a good
place to start. If memory serves, that's where the epistemology quote came
from. Of course the book is filled with quasi-anthropological discussions.
The Brujo and his tribe were perspectives in conflict. The way native
american values were absorbed by poor whites. The way the French and Germans
think each other strange. The way all our philosophy is derived from these
"social constructions", if you will. Its every in Lila, isn't it?
I was planning to address your comments more specifically, but now I've gone
on too long already. I just have a hunch that Pirsig is post-postmodern.
Maybe you have comments in this area already highlighted in your copy, eh
Matt? Its your baby, no? Help me mine thoughts out from some key passages,
will you? Anyone else have some thoughts or quotes handy? Anyone interested
in cracking the book and hunting some down? I think I'll do some of that for
next weekend, when I can post again. Maybe there was something in the thread
I blew off, but I don't recall any previous efforts along this line. And the
name of the thread, after all, is "Pirsig the Postmodernist?" Since the MOQ
is so obviously NOT modern, I think its better to ask if he's
post-postmodern. In other words, does he surpass the insights of
postmodernity, does he answer those pomo concerns? Bet you a buck he does.
Thanks for your time,
DMB
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