From: Joe (jhmau@sbcglobal.net)
Date: Thu Apr 17 2003 - 17:59:27 BST
On 15 April 10:16 AM Sam writes:
Hi Sam, Wim and All
Sam to Wim:
You asked, "Could Kuitert's 'only real experience that does matter and that
is universal' and his 'transcendence' refer to Pirsig's DQ?" I would suspect
not. I would think it refers to Quality as such; if the 'only [thing] that
does matter' is DQ then SQ, defined by contrast, becomes the realm of things
that do not matter, and I don't think that's what the MoQ implies (to say
'does not matter' implies 'has no value' - so how can it be Quality?). Plus
which, there is, I would argue, a danger here in getting hung up on personal
experience; a subject which we have discussed before, and I think you know
what my views are - principally that the emphasis on personal experience is
derived from subjectivist Modernism, and is religiously incoherent or
otherwise irrelevant.
joe: I agree that the quotes highlighted by Wim make more sense when
interpreted as Quality as such. In exploring the logic of an instinctive
sensing of reality, I think that aspects of dq and sq are the pattern. As
Pirsig indicates in his analogy of the relationship between dq and sq being
the leading edge, and the train. The motion, directions, and power are dq
aspects of the sq train, the complete pattern. 'Real experience that does
matter and that is universal' and 'transcendence' applies to the pattern.
Awareness makes a difference.
When discussing the social order, if there is no attempt to discriminate
between orders, I agree that there is 'a danger here in getting hung up on
personal experience:'. Police and Judges are the arbiters in the social
order and personal experience is not conclusive. The Inquisition was
immoral in regard to Faith. I think the personal experience of Faith
requires conscience as its guide. 'The devil made me do it!' is no
delfense.
In the intellectual order, also, where I know what I am doing, personal
experience determines everything. Faith is personal experience, the
certainty in the intellectual order is personal experience. Socrates and
Joan of Arc are examples of the certainty of the intellectual order and
Faith. Theology can apply to the intellectual or social order. Perhaps
personal experience in a theological discussion would be confusing, although
the markers of the social, intellectual orders, and Faith would be evident.
Can I take it to the bank, (in the sense of withdrawing it when I have to do
something) or not seems to be one marker.
In Iraq the late head of the state is in a different order than Hussein the
despot. You wrote on 26 March: "And the assessment that the West unleashes
biological chaos is an intellectual assessment (for Islam, just as much as
Christianity, operates at the intellectual level)", indicating there are
moral orders to consider when declaring war. Faith also cooperates in the
certainty for action. A religious war!
Joe
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