From: phyllis bergiel (neilfl@worldnet.att.net)
Date: Sun May 04 2003 - 22:52:41 BST
> Hi David and Sam:
dmb says:
> Basically, he's saying that the mystical experience is not something we
> percieve with our senses or with our minds. This is normally what we think
> of when we think of subjective experiences. By contrast, the eye of
> contemplation is about letting go of our ego self, our subjectivity, our
> feelings, beliefs and thoughts. Perhaps this is too subtle for me to
> properly convey, but I think that even though spiritual experience happen
to
> us personally, they can't rightly be called subjective. (Social and
> intellectual static patterns constitute our subjective experience, while
DQ
> is beyond our senses and mind.)I think that both Pirsig and Wilber see
that
> kind of experience as quite distinct from subjectivity. For both of them,
it
> is beyond psychology in the ususal sense of the word. And on a related
> point, I'd say its no big surprize that we can now discuss mysticism in
> psychological and other scientific terms. In "patristic times" those kinds
> of terms and concepts simply didn't yet exist. Of course they didn't talk
or
> write about it like that. They couldn't have. I don't see this as any kind
> of reason trust the old boys more, but less. This is what I meant when I
> said that the whole thing is not as ineffable as it once was. We now have
> conceptual categories that were not previously available. That's good.
> That's progress. We can really use that, even if it also means we have
more
> work to do in correcting the problems of modernity, flatland, SOM or
> whatever.
>
OK, I'm becoming a bit confused here. Just to give myself some framework,
are either of you familiar with an essay of Daisetz Suzuki where he explains
prahna and vijnana knowledge by describing a woman going out in the morining
to get water and seeing a morning glory growing on the well? If you are
familiar with it, would it be a) unmediated experience, b)mystical
experience or c) Dynamic quality event (or are these all the same in
Suzuki's scenario - that grasping of something in its totality before
intellectual dissection?
phyllis
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