From: phyllis bergiel (neilfl@worldnet.att.net)
Date: Tue May 06 2003 - 13:52:30 BST
Scott, Sam:
Ever hear of these folks? I'm not affiliated in any way, just wonder if
anyone sees this as an alternative to the traditional or individual mystical
religions.
http://www.ethicalhuman.org/whoweare.html
Scott wrote:
> Sam,
>
> > I haven't read the Eric Lerner. I have read 'What the Buddha never
taught'
> by Timothy Ward, though.
> > Is that similar?
>
> It's been a while since I read the Ward book, but as I recall, he was more
> into pointing out the way Buddhism was practiced in Thailand, while the
> Lerner book is more about his personal spiritual growth. So, no, not all
> that similar.
>
> >
> > In any case, I agree that this example is much more subtle (and more
> interesting) than the Yorkshire
> > Ripper example. Can you explain a bit more why you say: "On the other
> hand, that tradition is more
> > than tradition in the Western sense, since the teachers knew what the
> problem was because they had
> > gone through the same thing. There is, of course, a Western mystical
> tradition, but it seems to me
> > that this level of teaching ability is pretty rare, and what there is is
> still pretty much a
> > side-show." That hasn't been my experience, but then I've never spent
time
> in a Buddhist monastery,
> > only Christian ones, so maybe I'm deprived.
>
> Well, my point is that you don't need to spend years in meditation and
pass
> the scrutiny that Lerner describes to become a Christian priest or
minister
> (n.b., Lerner did not become a "master" or whatever, at least not in the
> book.). Certainly there is a lot of this kind of spiritual activity, but
the
> ones who really pursue it are considered "contemplatives", and hide
> themselves away in monasteries and convents, as opposed to being the
public
> face of the church. But I acknowledge that this is now starting to change.
>
> I also acknowledge that practice in Buddhism does not always measure up
> either. I read once that there exist books that give "correct" answers to
> Zen koans, and I'm sure there are many ordained Zen monks who couldn't
> meditate their way out of a paper bag.
>
> >
> > I'm familiar with Peter Berger, although I haven't yet read The
Heretical
> Imperative. It seems to me
> > that if we are to get to the 'high end' of the spiritual path, we must
> already have gone through a
> > number of stages (in MoQish, we must at least have learnt to exist as
> social beings, ie use language
> > etc, before we can start to operate at the fourth level, and we need to
> have some competence at the
> > fourth level before we can really start the solitary journey into DQ). I
> do not at all disagree that
> > there comes a time when the tradition must fall silent and say 'now you
go
> on your own'; my concern
> > is to say that the traditions are the silt/fertile soil thrown up by
> previous sojourners, and that
> > we don't need to reinvent the wheel. I could be misunderstanding David,
> but I think he's denying
> > that the faith traditions have any role to play, and that it is the
> cultivation of the 'mystical
> > experience' which is the be-all and end-all. I think that's a mistake (a
> mistake with a particular
> > cultural history).
>
> I agree up to a point. Berger's point in The Heretical Imperative is that
> *if* you are a modern, well-educated person then you *have* to question
your
> tradition, because there are all these other traditions you have been
> exposed to and who's to say which one is the "right" one. My point is that
> there currently isn't a well-articulated Western theology "fit for
> intellectuals". In part, I find, this is because the leaders feel obliged
to
> pander to the social level. So there is a lot of guff about sharing and
> dealing with existential despair, but not about working out (say) the
logic
> of DQ and SQ. In my opinion -- and as opposed to Matthew Fox, by the
way --
> liberal Christianity needs to reemphasize the fundamental reality of
> Original Sin -- as I interpret it, of course :).
>
> >
> > I would not want to deny that some people seem to be able to simply
bypass
> it all. Yet those people
> > demonstrate their developed awareness through the high quality of their
> lives, and so live in
> > recognisable continuity with the tradition (even if the social
authorities
> don't recognise that
> > continuity). Either way, unless you're a religious genius, I think you
are
> more likely to be able to
> > climb your mountain by journeying deeper into a religious tradition than
> by seeking a particular
> > experience (which isn't to say that you won't have experiences on the
> way).
>
> Again, I agree up to a point. My complaint about Western traditions is
that
> it remains difficult to dig deep. Too much chaff with the wheat. (Again, I
> must acknowledge that this is in practice true of Eastern religions as
well.
> The irony is that the Westerner looking at Eastern religions has the
> advantage of having most of that chaff removed by the transmitters. D.T.
> Suzuki, by the way, is the main transmitter of Zen to the West. He didn't
> mention those answers-to-koan books :)
>
> I find it interesting
> > that Eastern thinkers who are honoured in the West (eg Gandhi, Dalai
Lama)
> don't say 'you must take
> > up Buddhism' (or Hinduism) but 'take up Christianity' ie get acquainted
> with your own tradition and
> > see where it gets you. I think the links between Christianity and
> modernism are profound and largely
> > ignored, and when moderns try and take up an Eastern religion, whilst it
> might sometimes seem to
> > work, there are often deep cultural discontinuities that emerge and
cause
> problems (as with the
> > Timothy Ward book, possibly with Lerner too?).
>
> Lerner pretty much accepted the culture change. He did return to the U.S.,
> but continued to work in the Vipassana tradition, which is now pretty much
> established here.
>
> I agree that if you have been raised in a tradition, it is usually best to
> stay in it (unless it is exclusivist, or otherwise Bad). But there are a
lot
> like me and, I presume, DMB, who left the tradition well before it started
> to sink in on an intellectual level. So when I do start investigating it
has
> to "prove" itself. If I am looking around, now convinced that mysticism is
> where it's at, it is a lot easier to discern it in the transplanted
Eastern
> traditions than in the Western. Indeed, it took Barfield and Georg
Kuhlewind
> to clue me in that Christianity may have something to say that Buddhism
> doesn't.
>
> > Of course, such discontinuities could be the source
> > of the next DQ breakthrough. Orange Catholic Bible anyone?
>
> Not enough, if there are still jihads running rampant through the galaxy
:)
>
> - Scott
>
>
>
>
>
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