From: Paul Turner (pauljturner@yahoo.co.uk)
Date: Sun Jun 08 2003 - 21:36:19 BST
Hi Matt
However, Paul still
> makes a distinction between social and intellectual
> patterns that I'm not quite sure I understand. I'm
> not sure if it is still infected with a kind of
> ahistoricity. Possibly not. If the distinction is
> simply about "ideas that that directly work for
> society" and "ideas that do not work directly for
> society" then there doesn't seem to be anything
> directly wrong with that, other than, because we are
> still dealing with the MoQ, it does privelege ideas
> that don't work directly for society.
The distinction I make between social and intellectual
patterns of value in terms of ideas is clear. Ideas
exist only in the intellectual level, whether they
support society or not.
> People destroy societies. People with ideas, but
> pragmatists don't give a lot of credence to the idea
> of ideas that are seperate from their social
> patterns. I realize this is very un-MoQian,
> but that's the way it goes.
The MOQ values the idea that intellectual patterns of
value are distinct from social patterns. That's the
way it goes.
> So, on the ahistoricity charge, possibly not on
> first appearances, but I think making a gulf between
> society and ideas will lead to some strange
> consequences like the idea of "anarchy" being moral.
The ‘idea’ of anarchy is more highly evolved pattern
of value than the society in which a person lives to
have that idea. However, there are many other
conflicting ideas about society which are of higher
intellectual value – capitalism, democracy, liberalism
etc. If anarchy was the best idea about society it
would have happened, if it ever becomes the best idea,
it will happen.
> It just doesn't make any sense to me and I don't
> quite see the point or utility.
The point is to provide a good explanation of
experience by making the distinctions between the MOQ
levels sharp. My distinction here is that thinking is
always an intellectual pattern of value.
I am also arguing that explanations of experience can
be judged by a sense of intellectual or Dynamic value
that is distinct from the sense of value defining the
social level, and with or without social authority.
This is easy to accept if you agree that value is
empirical reality and needs no social authority to
'verify' it, and impossible to accept if you deny it.
This does not mean that all ideas are good, it means
that everything involves a sense of value, and we
don't need society to tell us if something - whether
that is a sharp pain in the backside, postmodernism or
a Picasso - is good or not. This also does not mean
that all societies are bad.
If the distinction I make between society and ideas
fails to provide a good explanation of experience for
you, it is your sense of value that decides that. What
is your sense of value based on, Matt?
It appears that intellectual value to you is whether
an idea fits with Rorty's explanation of experience or
not.
> Paul said:
> In Zen Buddhism a favoured symbol / character to
> describe the nature of zen is called ?enso?. It is a
> circle brushed slightly differently every time it is
> drawn, but most importantly it is never joined up to
> form a closed circle. This, the sages say, is
> because if the circle is closed, it closes itself
> off from the ultimate nature of reality, change. I
> think that is a good analogy to the MOQ.
>
> Matt:
> That is a good, pragmatic insight. Except that,
> pace Scott, pragmatists would excise "ultimate
> nature of reality" because we don't think it adds
> anything important to the description.
Zen Buddhists would leave it in.
cheers
Paul
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