From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Jun 08 2003 - 22:23:50 BST
Paul and aul:
dmb Challenged Paul:
As a specific group of people? Here's why I think that doesn't work: Take
the UN, the ACLU, the union of conerned scientists or whatever example you
like best. Think of an organization in society that is founded upon
intellectual principles and is dedicated to the protection and preservation
of intellectual values. Do you think we could still rightly say that it is a
social level organization?
Paul answered:
Yes I do, that's my whole argument, all organisations
are social patterns of value. The degree to which they
are directed by intellectual patterns of value does
not change that. Just as societies direct human bodies
and human bodies direct matter, you wouldn't say that
a human body is 'American' or carbon is human. ...
The social organisation of people of any kind for any
purpose is a social pattern of value. In this example,
the intellectual patterns of value are supported and
taught by the social patterns of value, the
institution which is a university or college.
dmb says:
Even institutions founded on and dedicated to intellectual values are static
social values? I don't understand people who are unpersuaded by logic. Sigh.
Paul, dude, your interpretation is illogical to the max. If an organization
is all about intellectual values how can we rightly call it social? Makes no
sense. Well, since demonstrating the illogic of your postion seems to have
no effect, how about authority instead. Straight from the horse's mouth....
From chapter 13 of LILA:
"Third, there were moral codes that established intellectual order over the
social order - democracy, trial by jury, freedom of speech, freedom of the
press."
dmb continues:
Everyone of the examples sited here by Pirsig involves a social institution
of some kind for it perperuation. Clearly, it is not group activity or
collective purpose that defines the social level. If that were true Pirsig
wouldn't be able to site democracy or federal laws as examples of
intellectual values. See? In fact, a large part of what Pirsig does in
talking about politics and war is to point out the we're in a transition
period where intellectual values are supposed to take control of SOCEITY.
From chapter 22 of LILA:
"In the US the economic and social upheaval was not so great as in Europe,
but FDR and the NEW DEAL, nevertheless, became the center of a lesser storm
between social and intellectual forces. The New Deal was many things, but at
the center of it all was the belief that intellectual planing by the
government was necessary for society to regain its health."
Thanks for your time,
DMB
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