From: johnny moral (johnnymoral@hotmail.com)
Date: Mon Jun 09 2003 - 02:49:17 BST
all,
Steve found this LC annotation 75
³Traditionally this is the meaning of free will [referring to applying the
term only to self-conscious beings]. But the MOQ can argue that free will
exists at all levels with increasing freedom to make choices as one ascends
the levels. At the lowest inorganic level, the freedom, the freedom is so
small that it can be said that nature follows laws, but the quantum theory
shows that within the laws the freedom is still there.²
The quantum theory doesn't prove "freedom" is there. It speaks of
probabilities and uncertainties, but to say that implies that there is
freedom is taking it further than it actually goes. We don't know all the
laws, we don't understand everything, but that doesn't mean that electrons
and particles don't. How would an electron decide what to do if it had such
freedom? On what basis would it make a decision?
Johnny
>From: Steve Peterson <peterson.steve@verizon.net>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>Subject: Re: MD Free Will
>Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 17:18:31 -0400
>
>Hi Wim, Scott, all,
>
>Steve
> > 'It seems that the question, "do we have free will" needs to be unasked
> > within the MOQ context. Or at least reworked.
> > In the MOQ, a sense of free will is an intellectual pattern of value.
>It
> > can be recognized whenever we think, "I did it because..." a phrase
>which is
> > the basis of all intellectual patterns of value since they are latched
>as
> > copied rationales'.
> >
>Scott gave 4 Jun 2003 19:22:15 -0600 as alternative reworking of the
>question:
> > 'I suggest replacing the phrase "free will" with "creativity". And only
> > Quality is creative. We are just local passageways for creativity to be
> > creative. We make a mistake by trying to own it, which leads us to
>wonder
> > how much "freedom" we have. One can just as well say we have none or we
>have
> > all. The error is to think that there is some "thing" called "me" that
>"has"
> > choices. The choices exist in their own right.'
>
>Similar thought from Pirsig...
>Annotation 29 from LC p506:
>"The MOQ, as I understand it, denies the existence of a "self" that is
>independent of inorganic, biological, social, or intellectual patterns.
>There is no "self" that contains these patterns. These patterns contain
>the
>self. This denial agrees with both religious mysticism and scientific
>knowledge. In Zen, there is reference to "big self" and "small self."
>Small self is the patterns. Big Self is Dynamic Quality."
>
>Wim said:
> > I prefer Scott's reworking to Steve's.
> > To the extent that one's behavior follows intellectual patterns of value
> > (i.e. can be redescribed as motivated action) it is still determined
>even
> > though from a social level perspective (compared with habitual,
>unthinking
> > behavior) it is free (from social patterns of value).
>
>Steve:
>I agree that human behavior is determined, the question of free will is
>'what is it determined by?' You seem to be saying that your behavior is
>determined by an intellectual pattern of value. The thing is, you *are*
>the
>intellectual pattern of value ("Small self is the patterns."). So your
>behavior is determined by you.
>
>As an aside, I noted that Pirsig supports the idea of extending the idea of
>awareness to all levels:
>
>LC p508 ³Šinorganic objects experience events but do not respond to them
>biologically, socially, or intellectually. They react to these experiences
>inorganically, according to the laws of physics.²
>
>He then extends free will to all levels as well...
>
>LC annotation 75
>³Traditionally this is the meaning of free will [referring to applying the
>term only to self-conscious beings]. But the MOQ can argue that free will
>exists at all levels with increasing freedom to make choices as one ascends
>the levels. At the lowest inorganic level, the freedom, the freedom is so
>small that it can be said that nature follows laws, but the quantum theory
>shows that within the laws the freedom is still there.²
>
>Thanks,
>Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
>Mail Archives:
>Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
>Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
>MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
>
>To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
>http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
>
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Mon Jun 09 2003 - 02:49:45 BST