From: Elizaphanian (elizaphanian@tiscali.co.uk)
Date: Sun Jun 15 2003 - 16:14:08 BST
Hi David,
> dmb replies:
> We can't help but look at the world through our own eyes, so to speak. It
> true. And I'm curious about how and why you've come to see intellect as
> "entrenched and oppressive". Very curious.
Put it down to searching for DQ and not finding it in academia (but finding it elsewhere).
> In this case it seems that my basic perceptions agree with Pirsig's, no?
> Does he not also see freedom, rights, democracy and other such liberating
> forces as a product of the intellect? That's pretty far away from
> oppressive, no? And entrenched? Compared to what? Its it more entrenched
> than the social level, which has been evolving for hundreds of thousands of
> years? According to Pirsig and common sense the intellect is less entrenched
> than just any about anything eles, no? And I think the impression that
> intellect is being resisted, especially by those who hold social level
> values most dear, if not embattled, is demonstrated by mountains of
> historical evidence.
>
> In other words, your personal experiences are not to be discounted or
> dismissed, but if we are talking about the nature of things and the state of
> the world we must allow the facts and evidence to bear the appropriate
> weight in that discussion, regardless of how we might feel about it. The is
> something dishonest about disregarding the facts, no? This is a good example
> of where thinking rationally actually requires a certain kind of morality.
> (I'm not making any accusations here, just making a point.) Likewise, I know
> from personal experience that being witness to such dishonesty can evoke a
> very strong emotion. I'm not sure what to call it. Its a little bit LIKE
> outrage, disgust or anger, but not exactly. You know what I mean, eh?
I think if I put "DMB's attacking social stuff" as a sign hanging around the neck of your posts, it
would help me to disagree with you less :-) I agree that social level elements are more firmly
entrenched than level 4 - but then, level 3 is also still under attack from level 2. So perhaps the
conflict will never end. My concern is to ensure that the defense of level 4 doesn't block out the
light of DQ (which I think the 'standard' MoQ can tend towards).
Sam
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