From: Elizaphanian (elizaphanian@tiscali.co.uk)
Date: Sun Jun 15 2003 - 16:23:39 BST
Hi Davor,
I thought your comments belonged in this thread.
Firstly, as I said to Squonk, I wouldn't want to identify my thesis with Aristoteleanism, although
there are obvious linkages. I'd like it to stand on its own, if possible. Secondly, I know very
little about Hinduism, and the point of my postscript is to pick up Pirsig's description of Dharma,
rather than the whole of Hindu philosophy.
You said:
I think
there is consensus about virtue being part of the so called vita
contemplativa(in Greek bios theoretikos), not? If so it cannot be identical
with dharma, while dharma(righteousness) is more associated with the vita
activa(in Greek bios praktikos). In Indian terms pravritti.
It seems that both dharma and artha, do not have the importance that both
you ans RMP subscribe to these concepts. They belong in the lower echelons
of the human life. Hmmm, I feel like I am telling Tiger Woods how to play
golf(....well after that first round he probably can use some advice).
You may well be right about that, you clearly know much more than I do about Hinduism. What I
understand Pirsig to be doing is to use the traditional language to describe the static latches at
each level as 'dharmas', in order to reflect the originating source (rather like 'natural law' I
suppose). Are you saying that dharma CANNOT be level 4?
You said:
The root of my or your misunderstanding is in your eudaimonic MOQ. I have
not had time for reading much posts lately so I completely missed out on the
discussion about it, so pardon me if I repeat what already has been
discussed.
Have a look at the essay itself; most of the discussion presupposes that (on the moq.org website)
You said:
I did not discover a systematic approach to the virtues in the
work of Aristotle, though as said my knowlege is limited, and if you can
proof me wrong please do so. Whether Aristotle did or did not systematize
the virtues is of great importance I think. Phronesis an important virtue,
is not the key virtue!!!! It is the third virtue and not the fourth, I
assume you have based your Eudaimonic level on the virtue of phronesis did
you not?( your words; 'It is this ability to discriminate as an individual,
and not just as a social unit, which I see as the essence of the fourth
level")
See his 'Nicomachean Ethics' for a discussion of the virtues.
But there is a special virtue not belonging in the hierarchy but
being detached from it, something else from the three, the justice from the
republic as a result from the virtues. This is not an Aristotelian but a
Platonic idea. Now there is the key of the flaw of your eudaimonic MOQ(with
respect). I would choose the Platonic version where the harmony of of the
virtues results in a righteous state, which may sound weird but important is
that it is not an individualised conception of the highest virtue. The
intellectual level or the eudaimonic does include the individualising of the
virtue while (Dynamic)Quality or the intellectual level should not be
considered as an attribute or accomplishment of individual subject but as a
product of an harmonized equillibrum of static and dynamic forces
established by the opennes of a culture as a whole. The fact that you give
rise to the importance of phronesis that allows an individual to judge
objectively to the extent that it is possibly is a heritage of Aristotelian,
Hellenistic and theological distortion of Platonic systematized virtues.
It would be fair to say I'm more Aristotelean than Platonic.... But I agree that "the harmony of of
the virtues results in a righteous state" - that's what I think the operation of DQ on the
autonomous self achieves (it's what the Christian tradition calls 'theopoesis').
Thanks for your comments; they were intriguing even where I haven't replied to them specifically.
Sam
"Phaedrus is fascinated too by the description of the motive of 'duty toward self' which is an
almost exact translation of the Sanskrit word 'dharma', sometimes described as the 'one' of the
Hindus. Can the 'dharma' of the Hindus and the 'virtue' of the Ancient Greeks be identical?" - The
Eudaimonic MoQ says yes. "Lightning hits!"
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