From: johnny moral (johnnymoral@hotmail.com)
Date: Tue Jun 17 2003 - 06:57:31 BST
pt 2
>JOHNNY
> > is that right? In the Catholic church, barrenness is grounds for
>annulment?
>
>RICK
>No. In American jurisprudence the failure to disclose an ability to
>reproduce prior to marriage constituted a fraud that served as grounds for
>annulment (and in several states even if the infertile party didn't know).
Hmm, I can see why that could be an issue. But finding out afterwards, or
just reaching that conculsion after a few years, isn't grounds, right?
So that's a civil annulment? The marriage is removed from the books as if
it never happened?
>JOHNNY
> > (If a marriage is annulled by the church, no divorce has to be filed?
>What
> > if the wedding wasn't in a church?)
>
>RICK
>Annulment and divorce are mutually exclusive legal remedies. An
>'annulment'
>is the remedy for a void marriage. That is, a marriage which legally
>"never
>existed" because of some defect that existed *prior* to the marriage. Once
>a marriage is annulled, it's like it legally never happened... the parties
>go their separate ways having no rights or responsibilities with respect to
>each other. A 'divorce' is the legal dissolution of a marriage. It
>doesn't
>'legally erase' the marriage like an annulment. Rather, it breaks the
>marriage up, decides property divisions and custody decisions and usually
>leaves the parties with various rights and responsibilities with respect to
>each other (ie. alimony, palimony, child support and custody sharing, etc).
>Also, legally speaking, it makes no difference whether a marriage is in a
>church, city hall, your backyard or anywhere... the law regarding
>divorce/annulment doesn't care.
Thanks, I see. I never hear of annulments outside the Catholic church
context. You said you law clerked in this, huh? How common were civil
annulments? The judge had to decide which was appropriate, right?
> JOHNNY
> What do you think
> > of the new 'Covenant Marriages' some states are adopting?
>
>RICK
>Well, I think everyone has the freedom to knowingly and voluntarily bind
>themselves to stupid contracts and provided those two prerequisites are met
>I've got no problem with 'covenant marriages'. But personally, I'm against
>them (ie. I'd never even consider it for myself). All it really is a
>marriage where you have less rights (you can't divorce without a certain
>kind of fault, you lose the right to sue your spouse on many causes of
>action), and in my mind, only an idiot signs away rights he or she may need
>in the future (rights are much easier to lose than to gain). Hey, just get
>the regular marriage and leave your rights unexercised if you don't want
>them (moreover, I'm not sure that their constitutionality has ever been
>determined by the USSC... though I'd have to check on that to be sure).
I don't know much about them. I know they are designed to trap couples into
"what do you mean you don't want the convenant marriage? Dont you love me?"
And maybe if that makes some couples think about what they are commiting
to, and maybe helps break up couples that aren't on the same wavelength,
that's a good thing.
>JOHNNY
> > And by the way, lots of abused people aren't married, so how do you
>explain
> > that?
>
>RICK
>I'm not sure I see how this question is relevant... explain?
I was thinking about people who stick together in abusive relationships even
though they're not married. There's lots of lesbian and gay abuse, I
understand. Even without marriage, people still stay in bad relationships.
So, between that and the fact that abuse has always been a cause for divorce
(and jail), I think the argument that divorce is needed for the abuse
problem is weak, expecially considering that the possibilty of divorce, of
abandonment, is one of the more threatening forms of abuse spouses use on
each other.
Johnny
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