From: Elizaphanian (elizaphanian@tiscali.co.uk)
Date: Sat Jun 28 2003 - 19:28:46 BST
Hi Squonk,
> sq: Hi Sam. Thanks. The MoQ says value comes first. You are saying The
> intellectual system of Christianity comes first, value comes after? Is that correct?
> Do you see Christian faith as a patterned response to Dynamic unpatterned
> experience?
No, I think the intellectual system of Christianity is a pattern of value (I think within the MoQ
'value' functions in an analagous way to how the word 'God' functions in Christianity - or perhaps
'holiness'). I think real faith is unpatterned - or, perhaps better, is open to DQ - although (as
with most of life) it is built on static latches.
> sq: I see. This will require a fundamental change in the way i think about
> the MoQ should i ever manage to convince myself that Intellectual patterns of
> value are discrete from social patterns of value.
> I have a picture in my head of a large, deep, rectangular glass fish tank,
> one third filled with clear water. Floating on the water is an equal volume of
> Oil. The tank is allowed to seesaw mid point on its long axis in gentle
> oscillation. The water and oil form waves - moving in sympathy but remaining
> separate.
That is a very helpful image, thank you.
> That is how i see the relationship between social and intellectual patterns -
> they do not mix but may harmonise through indirect relationships. Your ideas
> - and they are at the end of the day intellectual patterns according to the
> MoQ - are about Christianity, and not of Christianity itself - they are in a
> relationship.
Agreed.
> But that isn't the whole picture, because although expressed in a socially
> approved way yours is a dynamic experience. I feel your experience goes beyond
> social and intellectual patterns to a very special DQ/SQ relationship that
> comes before the patterns themselves. The only way you can describe it and deal
> with it is through Christianity - but that creates a tension between your social
> values and your intellectual values. The way out has been for you shake the
> tank so violently that oil and water appear to form one level of liquid.
> The urge behind the settling out, to stretch my analogy to breaking point,
> may be seen as DQ, and your faith as DQ/SQ tension. All beauty is DQ/SQ tension.
Hmm. Not sure I'd go along with all of that (not sure you'd expect me to) but I like the point about
beauty. I just find the 'standard' MoQ to be on its last legs intellectually (as Bo points out,
people here haven't come to any agreement about what the intellectual level is over the last few
years, so perhaps that does suggest that there is something wrong).
Sam
"Phaedrus is fascinated too by the description of the motive of 'duty toward self' which is an
almost exact translation of the Sanskrit word 'dharma', sometimes described as the 'one' of the
Hindus. Can the 'dharma' of the Hindus and the 'virtue' of the Ancient Greeks be identical?" - The
Eudaimonic MoQ says yes. "Lightning hits!"
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