From: johnny moral (johnnymoral@hotmail.com)
Date: Tue Jul 08 2003 - 01:55:50 BST
HI Squonk,
First of all, I agree with the idea that a null response does create a
pattern in the forum. Patterns are created by all relationships, including
null responses. No one has to do anything purposeful for a pattern to
evolve.
I also believe like you that Western values are not superior or more moral
than eastern values that are not based on s/o, or Intellect, or whatever the
contention is. I currently consider Dakota values* superior to Western
values, Eastern values, Greek values morally and intellectually.
there, does that cancel Skutvik out as far as the forum patterns go? Kill
Whitey!
*I got this great little book called Freedom and Culture, by Dorothy Lee, an
anthropologist. It came out in 1959, and I bet Pirsig read it back then.
"The Dakota were responsible for all things, because they were at one with
all things. In one way, this meant that all behavior had to be responsible,
since its effect always went beyond the individual. In another way, it
meant that an individual had to, was responsible to, increase, intensify,
spread, recognize, experience this relationship. To grow in manliness, in
humanness, in holiness, mant to plunge purposively deeper into the
relatedness of all things..."
Johnny
>I contend Skutvik advocates a divisive doctrine.
>The divisions lead to the moral assertion that the West is superior to the
>East.
>
>I wish to stress this - Skutvik's definitions are not only unnecessary,
>they
>lead to the morally justifiable assertion that the West is superior to the
>East. Skutvik defends his definitions, AND he fails to acknowledge cultural
>and
>racial division.
>
>Thus, if Skutvik's doctrine is socially approved by the forum, the forum
>must
>also understand that this doctrine has ramifications for cultural and
>social
>divisions.
>
>
>This is not to say that Skutvik's doctrine must be ignored on purely
>cultural
>and divisive grounds. If Skutvik's doctrine is approved, its ramifications
>need to be understood. It's not just up to Skutvik, its up to everyone who
>approves of the Skutvik doctrine.
>
>Skutvik:
>Pirsig says that quality and celebrity WAS equal in the age when
>Society was "the leading edge" of existence.(he only mentions
>"celebrity", there were other). In the more remote past when Biology
>was top notch IT was reality itself. Right now Intellect is at the front
>and its value is perceived as Reality (regardless of how we define its
>value). This you deny!? With followers like your Pirsig doesn't really
>need opponents.
>
>sq: This is your opinion. If it is has social approval, it will lead to the
>social approval of a divisive and racist doctrine which leads to the moral
>assertion that the West is superior to the East.
>
>
>Skutvik:
>OK, you did not express it that way. From 27June (to Scott R.)
>
> > The significance of Greece in ZAMM is the emergence of reason. That does
>not even require Subjects and Objects, as you
> > point out with your example of mathematics. These relationships (3-4-5,
>etc.) were originally incorporated into
> > religious practice, but later seen as immutable like the Gods.
>
>"The significance of Greece in ZAMM is the emergence of reason." ...
>you correctly say, but this is also described as the emergence of
>SOM. Please explain, and no "Comical Ali" antics this time.
>
>sq: No explanation would alter the fact that you are advocating a doctrine
>with cultural and racial divisions along Quality lines. Or, to put it a way
>even
>a child would understand, If you are correct, you, and anyone who agrees
>with
>you is a racist.
>
>Skutvik:
>You repeatedly paint yourself into corners and then try to escape by
>some smokescreen ..now it is racism ..but you are not to be let off
>your own hook that easily.
>
>sq: Mr. Pirsig's ideas are not painted into a corner. They are consistent
>up
>to the point where ignorance and bigotry reject Eastern intellectual
>aesthetic.
>You advocate cultural and racial division along lines of Quality. I cannot
>think of anything more serious in a forum such as this. If Quality is used
>for
>the doctrinal rejection and enslavement of anothers' intellectual and
>cultural
>inheritance, then it must be discussed with gravity, not dismissed as a bad
>joke. After a number of replies you have failed to acknowledged the problem
>of
>racism, and your rhetoric indicates disturbing evidence of a total
>disregard
>for the consequences of your ideas.
>
>You defend your doctrine, which is your prerogative. But the cultural and
>racial division must be acknowledged also. You are turning a blind eye to
>it.
>That is all it takes for racism and bigotry to flourish.
>
>This matter is urgent and requires the input of all members. If the
>majority
>of the forum agree with Skutvik, i will leave. For i do not wish to be
>associated with a forum advocating this stuff. It is the opposite of why i
>explore
>Quality, and i can explore Quality with people who do not use it to
>diminish
>huge tracts of intellectual history.
>
>So, let's have it? I will take a null response as an affirmation of the
>inherent racism in Skutvik's doctrine. That way there can be no individuals
>singled
>out for bullying.
>
>squonk
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