From: SQUONKSTAIL@aol.com
Date: Thu Jul 10 2003 - 13:08:46 BST
Squonk,
My last two posts were to refute your charge of "racism in the forum". They
were not about whether or not Bo's (or my) position is correct. You have not
answered that refutation, but continue to argue against Bo's position. Which, of
course, you are welcome to do, and in this post you do so civilly, without
insults, which I appreciate. But I'm still waiting either for a refutation of my
refutation, or a retraction.
- Scott
Hi Scott,
I have found your original post:
Scott:
No. What has happened is that you have blown up a small thing into an
absurdity. The small thing is that we posters of a Western background have taken our
examples for the most part from Western culture and history. That does not
mean we think Western culture is superior. It means we talk about what we are
most familiar with.
You are using this small thing to accuse Bo of a social crime instead of
replying to his ideas with ideas of your own. In your posts I have seen some
ideas, but they are usually buried by invective, so I seldom bother to try to dig
them out. This racism charge is the worst yet. It would at best be just silly,
but overall I fear it is malicious. As low quality as it gets. And as Steve
says, works to devalue accurate charges of racism. Like calling whoever one
doesn't agree with a fascist.
Specifically, your racism charge comes from the claim that Bo and I have
stated that S/O thinking arose in Greek culture about 500 BC, and that we call
this the birth of the intellectual level. It is true that I have not usually
stated that such thinking also arose in other cultures, but as mentioned, that is
only because I and my interlocutors are more familiar with Western culture. It
does not imply that I think there is no intellect elsewhere. However, you
claim that Eastern culture is not S/O based, which if true would imply that they
are not intellectual (if S/O thinking is the mark of the intellectual level),
which is absurd. But it is straightforward to argue against that claim. There
were materialist and idealist Indian philosophers and everything in between
back then. This means that those philosophers were aware of the distinction
between mind and what the mind perceived, and thought that only the perceived
objects were real, or thought they were illusions. That can only come out of S/O
patterns of thought. If there were not such thinking, why did Nagarjuna think
it was necessary to argue that subjects and objects had no inherent
self-existence? And why did so few listen or understand, so that hundreds of years later
the arguments had to be repeated by Chandrakirti and others (and still not
accepted)?
So when we say that "S/O thinking arose in Greek culture about 500 BC", we
are referring to its advent in Western culture, not saying that it only arose in
the West. Of course, it is a matter of dispute whether or not S/O thinking is
the mark of the intellectual level, but you seem to prefer to use demagogy
rather than argument over this question.
- Scott
sq: I agree differentiation's are found in all cultures. Eastern culture is
not as severe as the West, but its there, i agree. I do not believe i have ever
said Eastern culture does NOT have differentiation's?
I don't see a huge link between these differentiation's and intellect.
Intellect can assert they are there, but that is another matter all together.
Intellect can assert many things - it can assert that everything is totally
material, even society, as in Thomas Hobbes.
Skutvik conflates aesthetics, and in doing so denies the East of one, namely
the intellect. Considering the East is more aesthetically inclined than the
West, that is pretty damn ignorant in my view. I feel the Skutvik doctrine to be
patronising and bigoted.
There are no subjects and objects in the MoQ.
All the best,
squonk
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