From: johnny moral (johnnymoral@hotmail.com)
Date: Sat Jul 19 2003 - 20:33:08 BST
Hi Mati,
>Mati wrote : I have following the discussion on "Intellectual Level"
>with
> >interest. For myself I have come to believe that the "Intellectual
> >Level" is one's capacity to reason and rationalize the realities they
> >experience.
>
>Johnny replied: I'm suggesting that it depends on what is being reasoned
>or rationalized. I don't think reasoning that if I contnue to stand
>here, that lion over there will eat me, is an intellectual level
>thought. I think it is a rational thought to run away, but again, not
>an intellectual level thought.
>
>Mati replies: I guess we are all familiar with Flight/Fight/Fright
>response in biological animals including us. This is the biological
>thinking and for the most part automatic biological thinking, not an
>intellectual thought. But when you reason, " if I continue to stand
>here, that lion over there will eat me," is an intellectual level
>thought because this addressing the question perhaps, "What would happen
>if I continue to stand here?" Also we are able reason the level of
>risk, if I am here and there is a cage between us I should be ok." Put
>a gazelle in your spot and they are off like a shot. We can go on to
>reason all kinds of values in this situation, strength of cage, distance
>between me and a lion, is the lion hungry, etc. If there is no cage and
>we don't rely on our biological instinct to "get out" we probably end up
>cat food. :)
That kind of reasoning is stilll just biological thinking to me, even
thinking about the odds of the cage breaking, etc. I think squirrells
think about the strength of the branches they are on. What happens at the
intellectual level is we start to apply these biological thoughts to
society. THat's my whole point in this thread: intellectual level is on top
of social level, not biological. Those thoughts you describe as
intellectual are not on top of the third leve, they don't relate to
societyl, and are not social patterns as they don't relate two or more
biological patterns (people) together. Therefore they are biologica
thoughts. The heirarchy isn't just a ranking of complexity or quality or
preference, it shows four distinct layers of patterns that all use the
immediately lower layer patterns as their own building blocks with which to
build new paterns on their level. Your view of intellectual pattens have
nothing to do with society, which messes up the level/heirarchy thing and
also makes it hard to differentiate between thinking and intellectual
patterns. The way to differentiate them is if they are about society or
not.
>Mati Wrote:
> >This is perhaps why the Nazis loved their
> >book burnings, the possible intellectual (reason/rationalization)
> >threaten the social reality the Nazi tried to promote. This brings me
> >to my rub as "Thinking" as intellect. We do, I believe think in other
> >patterns without necessarily reasoning. IE. I go out to dinner and I
> >see an attractive woman, my biological thinking and my interest is
> >perked (Biological Thinking). I quickly suppress my interest to not
> >offend my wife. (Social Thinking). After all this thinking I am hungry
> >and order from the menu (Back to Biological Thinking). I reflect and
> >reason/rationalize on this all and try to understand this entire
> >experience and it's meaning, and perhaps write a novel(Intellectual
> >Level).
>
>Johnny: Exactly, but do you see what you've described as the only
>intellectual thought here?
>
>Mati responds: This is an intellectual thought because of the reason and
>rational that are used. My body through biological mechanism tells me I
>am hungry and I note, "I'm hungry" This is biological thinking, and
>recognizes the values that need to sustain my existence. Noting and
>describing this process is an intellectual one.
OK, but that's sort of the same thing: Reason and Rationality are
intellectual patterns, they help intellectual thoughts get transmitted and
help them effect society.
>
>Johnny continues. It is to perhaps write a novel: ie, to effect society.
>even if you don't actually write it, if you are thinking in those terms,
>that this could be a novel, then you are thinking about these ideas as
>they
>relate to and effect society.
>
>Mati: Please clarify.
A novel, written or not, is designed to have an effect on society. Even if
all you do is think about it, but don't get it typed out, as a thought, it
is intellectual.
>
> > I see MOQ delineating these patterns to explain and for that
> >matter reason or rationalize, the wide array of reality patterns we
> >experience.
> > As far as using "consciousness or awareness rather than
> >intellect" I am concerned that "consciousness" does not have the
> >capacity to support our ability to reason values or quality.
>
>Johnny: I see your point. Consciousness is the canvas that morality
>paints its patterns on, creating subjects and objects according to the
>patterns of
>morality. Consciousness also is what expects the patterns to continue,
>indeed is where the patterns live as patterns before they are actualized
>
>(this is the pre/post conscious split, which refers to the
>self-consciousness (subject) and objects created after the
>pre-consciousness
>has expected them morally. The rationalization and reason are really
>just
>patterns themselves, because as I said above, people rationalize and
>reason
>without being aware of doing it it is a pattern to do so.
>
>Mati asks: Can you give an example.
That was the example of running away from the lion. You don't consider it
reason, but the lion is the reason we run, so it is reason.
>So you're right, consciousness doesn't do the rationalization, a pattern
>does that.
>
>Mati responds: Consciousness it a nebulous concept. Any being with
>nervous system can be conscious. A dog is conscious but will never be
>intellectual. So to house intellect within in the so-called
>consciousness doesn't account for much. Human consciousness is in
>probably a left over from the SOM and to me doesn't offer much in
>further promoting intellect.
Oh, I see consciousness as being much more signigficant than that. It is
the creator of the world, that from which objects and subjects are made
real.
>Take care,
>Mati
take care
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