From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Jul 20 2003 - 17:47:13 BST
Steve, Erin and all:
Steve (falsely) said:
I was dumbfounded in the past about DMB's insistance that Lila doesn't
manipulate language-based symbols that stand for patterns of experience.
But if you keep in mind that DMB only thinks of the levels as types of
people, then his position on Lila's intellect makes sense. I think you'd
agree that she is not an intellectual. To DMB this means she diesn't 'exist
on the intellectual level' or something like that.
dmb says:
I only think of the levels as types of people? No. You have misunderstood.
I've not accomodated your request to talk about static patterns all by
themselves for reasons I've already tried to explain. Its true that I DO
think that people are the BEST way to talk about the levels because that's
how the various values are exhibited in real life. People ARE the patterns
and so we can see what values are being upheld by an examination of specific
people. More to the point, the reason I don't take Lila's ability to speak
English as a sign of her intellectual quality, besides the undisputable fact
that the author says she has none, is that plain language only requires the
social level. The intellect is not necessary to speak. If that were true our
ancestors would have been mute until about 500BC and you and I would not
have uttered a word until we were in high school. Language is NOT the kind
of symbol manipulation refered to in the LC definition. The use of language
in the social level sense does not allow for such manipulation, only
conventional use. Even children can talk, right? Does anybody imagine that
your average 5 or 10 year old could rightly be called intellectual? I don't.
Maybe we could say that about W.J. Sidis, but he's clearly an exception. Or
consider what Pirsig says about the great epic poetry of Homer. He says it
was written before the intellect was born, when social level values like
celebrity were still the highest values. Clearly Homer could use langage
far, far better than Lila could, yet he was not expressing intellectual
values in those writings.
Steve said:
You are talking past him when you suggest that Lila is participating in
intellectual patterns of value despite not being an intellectual type of
person. He doesn't like to talk about patterns of value so the distinction
has no meaning for him.
dmb says:
I don't like to talk about patterns of value? Huh? That's about ALL I do.
You just don't like the WAY I talk about them, which is in terms of specific
examples. I would have thought such would be helpful and that it really
doesn't help to talk about it in vague generalities. And let me say that
when I discuss the levels of values in terms of specific people like Lila,
I'm not talking about her personality or style. I'm talking about the VALUES
she holds - or rather the values that hold her, that dominate her forest.
Here's a question for you. How do you reconcile Pirsig's comments about Lila
with the assertion that she "is participating in intellectual patterns"? I
really don't see how you can. I mean, if you have to flatly contradict or
otherwise ignore statements like this to make sense of the MOQ, then
obviously something in that understanding has gone wrong. Your assertion
just doesn't add up. Sometimes we see an unusual interpretion of things that
works and that's cool, but to read these passages and then still insist that
Lila has intellectual quality is, well... To put it way too nicely, its not
good.
"Does Lila have Quality? Biologically she does, socially she doesn't.
Obviously! Evolutionary morality just splits that whole question open like a
watermelon. .. Biologicall she's fine, socially she's pretty far down the
scale, INTELLECTUALLY SHE'S NOWHERE."
"She missed the whole point of everything. She's after Quality, like
everybody else, but she defines it entirely in biological terms. She DOESN'T
SEE INTELLECTUAL QUALITY AT ALL. Its outside her range."
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