From: johnny moral (johnnymoral@hotmail.com)
Date: Thu Jul 31 2003 - 18:47:07 BST
Hi Bo, and all,
You posted this LC annotation:
>102 which says:
>
>* " I see more clearly today than when I wrote the SODV (Subjects,
> Objects, Data and Value") that the key to integrating the MOQ
> with science is through philosophic idealism which says that
> objects grow out of ideas, not the other way round. Since at the
> most primary level the observed and the observer are both
> intellectual assumptions, the paradoxes of quantum theory have
> to be conflicts of intellectual assumptions, not just conflicts of
>what
> is observed. Except in the case of Dynamic Quality, what is
> observed always involves an interaction with ideas that have been
> previously assumed.....etc".
I'm not prepared to address your "SOM Idealism" concept (I thought the two
were exclusive) and was also confused by your "Idealism = Subjective"
statement in your last post to Joe. Could you explain the "half" of SOM
that is idealism to me, please?
But regarding the Pirsig quote I have a big question. He says the objects
grow out of ideas, not the other way around. Where do these ideas come
from. Why do I have the idea that the Eiffel Tower is in Paris? If I go
there, I suppose I will see it, and it will look like the idea I have of it,
and grow out of the idea. What if I had no idea about it, had never even
heard of the Eiffel Tower, and went to Paris. Would I not also see it, same
as if I had the idea?
Johnny
>Ah! The "philosophical idealism" that I have spotted in several
>annotations is a mere STRATEGY to get the MOQ integrated with
>science (Quantum Physics). But why not say so to the MOQ readers?
>WARNING now I am acting the role as a SOM idealist!. For instance
>the annotation that Rick presented to me. (I haven't found the
>number)
>
>* And in this highest quality intellectual pattern, external
>* objects (matter) appear historically before intellectual
>* patterns... But this highest quality intellectual pattern itself
>* comes before the external world, not after, as is commonly
> presumed by
>* the materialist.".
>
>But is such a strategy possible, or wise? Analyzing the above.
>
>Pirsig says that SOM says that matter comes before mind, but this is
>only the objective half of SOM, the subjective idealist half says the
>opposite. With this erroneous opening it becomes a bit weird :
>SOM is the highest intellectual pattern, but the MOQ is supposed to
>be still "higher" (are there room at the top?). Still, the problem is that
>the MOQ can't well adapt one half of SOM (the idealist) without
>becoming a subset of SOM.
>
>This effort to make the MOQ an idealist philosophy is wasted because
>(as he says lower down in # 102) the quantum findings are only weird
>from a SOM p.o.v, but it has succeeded in the creating a lot of
>confusion at this forum. But then, is it really a strategy? In annotation
>after annotation Pirsig takes the idealist position - for instance in # 3 -
>
>"Without humans to make assuptions, that assumption cannot be
>made ..etc.
>
>I don't know if this idealism follows from having defined the intellectual
>level as thinking or it's the other way round: intellect must be mind to
>"make assumptions", but any way it nullifies the insight that P. arrived
>at in ZMM, namely that QUALITY is the creator of the Subject/Object
>pair and thereby the materialist/idealist divide. It (idealism) also
>creates problems for the MOQ as presented in LILA where intellect is
>supposed to be a static level - out of the static social level - and in
>conflict with the parent level. But where is the static element in
>"thinking"? One may principally think of everything! And the conflict
>with social value? Totally absent.
>
>But there is this little sentence in the opening annotation that saves it
>all
>
>"Except in the case of Dynamic Quality, what is observed always
>involves an interaction with ideas that have been previously assumed"
>
>DQ is excepted from the closed observer-observed circle, a reality
>outside it.This is the most significant statement of the whole LC: Once
>the Copernican Revolution was made the world became a QUALITY
>existence and the static evolution began with the inorganic.The static
>levels aren't quasi-intellectual patterns, rather the necessary base for
>intellect.
>
>Sincerely
>
>Bo
>
>
>
>
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