From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Wed Aug 06 2003 - 15:05:55 BST
Hi Squonk,
Response to Part I
> squonk: Hello Platt, If you have read my review of Matt's last essay you
> will have seen that i accept what you are saying. I feel we can still
> use old words in new contexts? If one reads Spinoza along side
> Descartes, for example, it can be a little unnerving to discover that
> Spinoza is using a different description of 'attribute' than Descartes.
> For Spinoza, an attribute inheres in one being - God or nature. For
> Descartes, attributes are of Mind or Matter, or God. Spinoza and
> Plotinus are a little like the MoQ in this regard, as both Spinoza and
> Plotinus view the One as being that which is real. Everything else is an
> aspect of the One and are therefore in a continuum. As you know, and as
> i admire you i will not insult you by repeating that the One of Pirsig
> has two attributes - static and Dynamic. Therefore, subjects and objects
> in the MoQ must be talked about in new ways, that of Dynamic and static.
> All patterns are in the continuum; subjects and objects are linked.
I like you appeal to new ways of talking, but feel the value of clear
communicating takes precedence, especially here in a forum where
language backgrounds are varied, being international in scope. But, we
should, I agree, refer to values and value patterns more than we do in
order to suggest how the MOQ applies to everyday life.
P
> Objectivity, as Steve has eloquently pointed out, is based on
> measurement. Far from being futile, measurement (objectivity) is the
> basis of science which has brought untold benefits to mankind.
S
> squonk: Whatever unit you ever take must be relative to something else.
> In his history of Western philosophy, Bertrand Russell reminds us that
> this was known at the birth of geometry. Therefore, it must be asserted
> that measurement is an invention, and what is more, it is an invention
> of the human intellect.
Yes, intellectual patterns absolutely require relativity. :-) You
cannot have many without the one. And yes, measurement is an invention
of human intellect resulting from a response to DQ.
S
> One could argue that inventions of the Human
> intellect are subjective, but as there are no subjects and objects in
> the MoQ, we must say they are intellectual patterns of value instead. I
> agree measurement is beneficial, but i would say measurement is an art.
> If you wish to measure rotation, you use another tool - radians for
> example (degrees per second).
The invention of a tool of measurement is art, a response to DQ. After
the tool is established, it loses much of its artistic aura as it
becomes more and more ordinary, i.e., static. The first ruler was a
work of art. Today, it's a well worn, widely used, ho-hum static
pattern.
S
> > As intellectual patterns are empirically verifiable as the
> > most dynamic, (thus providing evidence for a hierarchy of evolutionary
> > related patterns) it is intellectually patterned experience that a
> > Metaphysics is concerned with.
P> Nor does this follow. At least, I can't make sense of it.
S
> More frustration. But i have a feeling you would agree that
> static inorganic patterns are evolving far more slowly, (less
> dynamically) than static intellectual patterns? That's all i am saying
> really.
If all you are saying is that static inorganic patterns are evolving
more slowly than static intellectual patterns, I urge you to say it
that way in the first place. There's no need to embellish that idea as
you did previously above. Nothing is gained but confusion on your
reader's part. Since you've proved your ability to state your ideas in
plain, simple English, I can think of no good reason to do otherwise.
Just assume that everyone here wants to understand your views without
having to guess what they are or work like crazy to catch a glimmer of
your meaning.
Make it easy for us, Squonk, I beg you. A simple, clear, declarative
intellectual pattern contains much greater aesthetic quality than a
jumbled, confusing one. Only certain academics in the humanities are
impressed by incomprehensible, convoluted, jargon-filled, high-sounding
prose. (Postmodernists take note)
Platt
Society practices a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of
political oppression. - John Stuart Mill
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