From: Lars Quisling (larsquisling@hotmail.com)
Date: Thu Aug 21 2003 - 10:15:45 BST
>From: "Ian Glendinning" <ian@psybertron.org>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>Subject: RE: MD Pirsig, Falck, and Wolfram
>Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 22:38:52 +0100
>
>Lars,
>
>You said (quoting Stephen Wolfram's ANKOS)
>thought, will and intentionality may be present in all aspects of the
>universe
>
>All I add is ... all aspects of the universe ... "that we can know about".
>Any other aspects are (pragmatically speaking) irrelevant.
>
>To be fair, I have scan-read ANKOS dozens of times in Borders et al.
>Wolfram
>has intrigued me, but I've never quite bought him.
>A bit like Pirsig, it's clear that though he is probably pretty close to
>some kind of truth, he's not actually all that original.
>For Myth, Truth (and Literature) I recommend Lakoff (or Dupuy) (or Rorty if
>you prefer).
>I shall seek out and read Falck based on your suggestion.
>
>MOQ compatible ?
>I believe so - if you avoid the more absolutist interpretations of Pisrig.
>(Absolutely) nothing new under the sun. Ever.
>
>Ian Glendinning
>
Well, I certainly wouldn't care for an absolutist, doctrinaire
interpretation of Pirsig personally. To nail my colours to the mast as it
were, I was deeply impressed by ZMM when I read it first, a few years ago. I
felt that whilst there was a definite intuition of truth which demanded
assent in this novel, there were obvious logical difficulties with the
argument adavnced- which is why it was a novel and not a work of philosophy,
I suppose. Unlike most of the people on this mailing list (I assume), I
didn't feel that 'Lila' resolved these difficulties with its new
terminology, and the more I read the more strongly I feel this.
I haven't yet had time to try and tackle Stephen Wolfram's book, but I had a
sense, from what people had told me of it, that it might be quite hard to
reconcile with 'MOQ.' For example, I understand that Wolfram asserts
something like a scientific animism, which 'de-anthropomorphises' our
notions of complexity, that human evolution is the pinnacle of complexity -
which I thought would obviously undermine the Pirsigian notion of evolution
in 'Lila.' The debate about Wolfram here was interesting but hard to follow
without having done the required reading.
For my part, I suppose I'm less interested in 'Lila' than in alternative
developments of the idea of Quality in ZMM- the sort of thing which I found
in the Colin Falck book I mentioned, in fact. Does anybody have any
suggestions on this theme?
Thanks for your time,
LQ
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
>[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of Lars Quisling
>Sent: 13 August 2003 12:44
>To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>Subject: MD Pirsig, Falck, and Wolfram
>
>
>
>
>Hi everybody.
>
>I'm a newcomer here, and apropos of nothing much I thought I'd offer a
>piece
>of information and a question.
>
>The piece of information is for those of you who are interested in
>Pirsig-related ideas gaining greater currency in the mainstream of academic
>thinking. In the humanities at least, a book I recently read seems to
>suggest that there might be some prospect of this. The book is 'Myth, Truth
>and Literature' by Colin Falck, which was published in 1989 or 1990, and
>has
>been widely tipped to initiate a new direction in the study of the
>humanities. Camille Paglia, for example, wrote, "Literary studies are in a
>period of chaos: the age of theory is over, but it's not clear what is
>taking shape. Mr.Falck's book is a map for the future." The relevance of
>all
>this is that Falck's ideas are heavily influenced by 'Zen and the Art of
>Motorcycle Maintenance.' To someone who has read both books, the influence
>is clear if unspoken (Mr.Falck doesn't explicitly use the term 'Quality'
>for
>example, but he relates his ideas of literary value to 'arete' and
>'dharma'), and Mr.Falck acknowledges it explicitly in his final footnote:
>"My final acknowledgement must be to Robert M.Pirsig's once-acclaimed but
>now (it seems) almost forgotten ficitional masterpiece _Zen and the Art of
>Motorcycle Maintenance_ [...] Much of what I have argued in this present
>book is only an intellectual elaboration of Pirsig's fine insights." So
>there's an indication that even if he isn't a very visible presence,
>Mr.Pirsig has still had some guiding influence on the current generation of
>academics, and may have more in the future. Apologies if this has already
>been discussed, or if it is not of interest to this discussion group.
>
>My question concerns Stephen Wolfram's 'A New Kind of Science.' Do those of
>you who are familiar with Mr.Wolfram's work feel that its philosophical
>implications are MOQ-compatible or not? I am not sufficiently familiar with
>Wolfram's work to make a full judgment, but I was struck by his suggestion
>that his 'principle of computational equivalence' indicates that thought,
>will and intentionality may be present in all aspects of the universe,
>which
>seemed to me to recall a strain of animism in Mr.Pirsig's writing-
>particularly in 'Lila.' Again, apologies if this has already been discussed
>or is not deemed interesting.
>
>Thank you for your time,
>LQ
>
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