From: johnny moral (johnnymoral@hotmail.com)
Date: Thu Aug 21 2003 - 17:43:01 BST
Hi Bo,
>Johnny:
> > I like the "idea/rock aggregate" phrase. I agree they do not exist
> > separately. It's almost like SOM or materialism, except that the rock
> > doesn't exist if there is no idea of it. But if there is, it does,
> > and there should be if there should be.
>
>I skip the things leading up to this point as I haven't followed it too
>closely. You say you "like" the idea/rock aggregate, that's good but I
>had hoped for a resounding YES because this is really what all is
>about, how to define the Q-intellect I mean. If that is seen as the "idea
>of a rock/the rock itself" aggregate all problems dissolve.
I thought that was a resounding YES to "idea/rock aggregate". They can not
exist seperately, if one is there, the other is also. Is the "Q-Intellect"
the same as morality for you? Is it somehow different from just Q?
>Me prev:
> > >The inorganic pattern of granite or marble or whatever is as REAL as
> > >all patterns of all static levels ..not least the intellectual
> > >pattern of an idea versus the material thing. In this sense your
> > >observations are right.
>
>Johnny:
> > But, in some other sense, not?
>
>Er ..yes, because - as said - what you wrote (below) are valid as
>arguments before the Quality insight, but disastrous afterwards.
I still don't see the disaster. I think we are agreeing, so there must be
some confusion.
> > > > there, there has to be a rock there
> > > > in the mythos
>
>"Mythos" is the pre-intellectual social era (I call) no?
No no, that's just self-aggrandizement, modern hubris. The mythos is going
on still right now, it can never be replaced by anything, nor can anything
escape it. The mythos is always the shared space of ongoing patterns that
form our universe.
>
> > > > an intersubjective agreement that a rock should be
> > > > there, before anyone can have an ontologically material idea that
> > > > a rock is there.
>
>To the Stone Age (who had a special relationship with rocks ;) nature
>weren't what we (from intellect ) call "matter", the proverbial rock was
>rather petrified "life". Your above "intersubjective agreement" as if
>decisive for the rock's existence is intellect peering down on the rest of
>existence from its "alta vista".
Yeah, so? Don't forget that the intersubjective agreement is a result of
the rock's existence. So though it's an "alta vista", it's thoroughly
grounded in history.
> > > > The intersubjective agreement is based entirely
> > > > on SQ, a common mythos.
>
>But the MOQ is a even higher vista, from where intellect is "the rest of
>existence" and NOT mind - as I accuse so many of you to view it like.
>MIND IS REMOVED TO THE Q-LEVEL!!! In this context the
>"intersubjective agreement based on common mythos" becomes:
>"Intellect's divide of a material rock and an idea of that rock began with
>people of old starting to ask for a permanence beyond the MYTH.
What's the Q-Level? Are you saying that intellect divides the rock/idea
aggregate? I sort of thought that intellect is the idea of the rock, and
the experience of the rock. Certain intellectual patterns may divide the
aggregate again and ponder how there are two parts to it, but not all
intellectual patterns do.
>Me prev:
> > >...but I'm afraid you are repeating the pre-moqish observations that
> > >Phaedrus of ZMM (who looked at it from SOM at that time) made about
> > >"mythos" and all that. Useful to arrive at the MOQ, but afterwards
> > >messing it up thoroughly.
>
> > Please explain?
>
>My above deliberations is my explanation. Hope it makes sense.
>
>Sincerely
>Bo
Not yet, I'm afraid. I think we agree, but I guess I can't tell what I am
saying.
Johnny
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