From: SQUONKSTAIL@aol.com
Date: Wed Aug 27 2003 - 19:19:46 BST
On 23 Aug SQUONKSTAIL commented:
Me prev:
> > Namely the fact that young Phaedrus was confronted with the SOM
> > and its subject/object dilemma. There can't be any doubt about that!?
> squonk: There is no dilemma.
No dilemma in the subject/object metaphysics? You must be joking
mr. whatever is you name.
sq: I am not joking. A dilemma is a choice between two undesirable
alternatives. In this case, the two undesirable alternatives are between subjective or
objective quality. But once subjects and objects are seen as illusory, Quality
becomes primary and the dilemma dissolves.
> Phaedrus was asked if he was teaching
> Quality. This made him reflect upon Quality and he discovered that it
> is primary reality.
OK I accept this short version of the long argument that led to the
Quality Insight.
sq: There is no argument. No argument at all. One does not require
argumentation to establish Quality. The only arguments are those between philosophical
systems of thought which take subjects and objects to be primary.
> Subjects and objects then become aesthetic
> creations of the intellect.
In ZMM there are no levels, he merely says that Quality creates
subjects and objects.
sq: Only if you take subjects and objects to be primary. If you do not take
subjects and objects to be primary, then you cannot say Quality creates them.
This begs the question, Why are subjects and objects taken to be primary?
The answer is that they are artistic creations by the intellect. Intellect is
created by Quality.
However introducing the full-fledged MOQ on to
this it means that the subject/object divide is a value level, and as he
calls it "pre-intellectual" it means the intellectual level.
sq: Pre-intellectual as in this instant. Not as in before the intellect
evolved.
"Aesthetic
creation of the intellect" ... OK, in the same sense that the human
organism is an aesthetic creation of Biology, but it is Quality that
creates both Biology and Intellect in the first place.
sq: In this instant, pre-intellect, there is a harmonious preselection based
on Quality. There are no subjects and objects - Poincare saw this too.
> They are human inventions. There are no
> subjects and objects in the Metaphysics of Quality.
Human what? It sounds uncannily like "human mind". If so you are
back at square one ...where you have been all the time.
sq: Humans exist in social groups. My intellectual patterns are the result of
many value choices made throughout human history. I can be intelligent and
creative without subjects and objects.
> However, the MoQ
> explains why we may think subjects and objects are primary.
Exactly!
> The MoQ
> also tells us the intellectual development that eventually asserted
> subjects and objects began in prehistory,
Intellect may have hatched within social reality for ages, I don't deny
that, but it is its EMERGENCE that counts. See my entry in the Peirce
thread.
sq: I am extremely familiar with you views and at one and the same time as
being familiar with them i feel i understand them, and at one and the same time
as being familiar with and understanding your views i also reject them. You
know this.
> and that initially, subjects
> and objects are biological and social in nature - the desire for the
> opposite sex and recognition of the established leader.
Social in origin naturally because all levels start as a parent level
pattern, but not in the "opposite sex" or "recognition of leader" sense.
Btw. how can particular patterns of the intellectual level be of social
and/or biological nature? All patterns of a level are of that level's
nature!!!!! Your perception of the MOQ is very strange.
sq: If you are very muscular, bully others for sexual and social advancement,
and if i have a symbol which indicates all this which may be, 'HIM' we have:
1. A biological pattern of Quality recognition which is felt at the
biological level.
2. A Social pattern of Quality recognition which is felt at the social level.
3. An Intellectual pattern of Quality recognition which is felt at the
intellectual level.
4. All patterns exist and evolve simultaneously with DQ.
Are you an object to my subject? No, you are experienced in many differing
ways which cannot be encapsulated within the intellectual framework of subjects
and objects - reality is a dynamic process of values.
Sincerely
Bo
sq: And you.
PS
Please mr ?? Can't you edit your posts in a way that makes it possible
to see who is speaking, and don't you have a line length setting in
your mail program?
sq: I shall try.
squonk
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