From: ERIN NOONAN (enoonan@kent.edu)
Date: Fri Aug 29 2003 - 18:08:43 BST
Did you say you were a business man? Its funny because its really
common in my experience that when I meet somebody who is really
interested in Maslow they are also into business.
I agree with the MOQ and disagree with Maslow's theory.
I see some relations, like they both have levels. Surface similarity
to me.
Too many great works from people who lower needs were not being met in
my opinion.
I heard Maslow's mother kept a lock on their fridge, maybe hunger was
the inspiration of his ideas :-)
I thought in Lila's child Pirsig explicitly states that he doesn't say
whether you can skip a level or not. Maslow explicitly states that you
can't.
As for Pirsig's model it seems less likely to me that a level can be
skipped. Possible I guess, but can't think of any examples. But in
Maslow's I know of way too many examples of lower levels not being met
and even in people who are considered self-actualized (and Maslow put
that as less then 5% of the population). Actually after reading
Maslow's life I think he may have been one of those people. Therefore I
don't believe his model is anywhere near as great as Pirsigs.
Erin
Ian Glendinning wrote:
>Wim,
>
>Maslow may indeed have thought "all behavior is determined", but I have
to
>say when I say Maslow I mean the sum of all modern interpretations,
>synthesis and extensions of his output, not an analysis of how
misguided his
>original thinking may have been, or whether he really used any credible
>metaphysics of any kind. (This is leading us back to nature / nurture
and
>evolutionary psychology again)
>
>The discreteness of layers, whilst still being dependent, supporting
(even
>conflicting) of each other is common to both Pirsig and Maslow I
believe.
>Although the level are discrete (in the sense of defining prototypical
>aspects of each), that doesn't mean the boundaries don't get fuzzy
>sometimes, as you move to the interfaces and away from the central
>prototypes
>
>I used to worry about anthropomorphism too, particularly in the
metaphorical
>use of active verbs like the examples you cite. Now however I feel it is
>just human nature to do so in conceptual as well as linguistic
metaphors,
>and provided we never forget these are metaphors I think the model is
>workable. (It seems a truism that we can never have anything but a human
>perspective on the world, how ever arrogant our metaphysics gets.
Better to
>know this than to ignore it - I say.)
>
>How do I see the relation between "patterns of value" and "needs" ? To
be
>honest I simply see a close parallel between the two frameworks - which
>always leads me to suspect some underlying relation - more human nature
to
>suspect / seek rationale. If I were a betting man, I'd say Pirsig was
more
>fundamental (Foucault expresses a similar general philosophical
framework
>too IMHO), and that Maslow was just an outcome, a corollary or evidence
of
>Pirsig's patterns of value at work in the world.
>
>Ian Glendinning
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
>[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of Wim Nusselder
>Sent: 28 August 2003 22:25
>To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>Subject: Re: MD economics of want and greed 4
>
>
>Dear Ian,
>
>I see the parallel now between Maslow and Pirsig. Maslow seems to apply
>quite another metaphysics however (stating explicitly that all behavior
is
>determined in the 1943 article I referred to).
>
>Pirsig wrote ('Lila' ch. 12):
>'This classification of patterns is not very original, but the
Metaphysics
>of Quality allows an assertion about them that is unusual. It says they
are
>not continuous. They are discrete. They have very little to do with one
>another. Although each higher level is built on a lower one it is not an
>extension of that lower level. Quite the contrary. The higher level can
>often be seen to be in opposition to the lower level, dominating it,
>controlling it where possible for its own purposes.'
>
>I don't particularly like the 'opposition', 'domination', 'controlling'
and
>'purposes' sentence. It antropomorphizes the levels more than my
>understanding of them allows.
>Do you think Maslow's levels of needs are as discrete and discontinuous
as
>Pirsig's levels? How do you see the relation between 'patterns of
value' and
>'needs'?
>
>With friendly greetings,
>
>Wim
>
>----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
>Van: "Ian Glendinning" <ian@psybertron.org>
>Aan: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>Verzonden: donderdag 28 augustus 2003 20:00
>Onderwerp: RE: MD economics of want and greed 4
>
>
>> You're right Wim, I did just latch onto one point that already
interested
>> me, rather than looking for what your point was. Sorry about
that,perhaps
>I
>> should have changed the thread title.
>>
>> I'm surprised the parallel between Maslow and Pirsig isn't more
obvious to
>> more people. It smacked me right between the eyes the first time I read
>> Pirsig.
>>
>> Satisfaction of basic physical / biological needs at the lowest level
>> Satisfaction of social needs in the middle.
>> Satisfaction of individual self-fulfillment / intellectual needs at the
>top.
>>
>> What I was trying to say is that there is a strong parallel, even if
there
>> isn't a one to one mapping between specific levels, or any direct link
>> betwen the two.
>>
>> (The evolutionary psychology bit is another story, as you say.)
>>
>> Ian Glendinning
>
>
>
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