From: Paul Turner (paulj.turner@ntlworld.com)
Date: Sun Aug 31 2003 - 19:55:13 BST
Bo
Bo:
From your above paragraph: " ....the metaphysical term DQ is a static
intellectual reference ...etc." Again you make it sound as if I have
overlooked some important point...
Paul:
That's because I think you have.
Bo:
...and again it is a S/O difference, this time between words and reality
(words are thoughts as Wittgenstein pointed out)
Paul:
No, it's between static and Dynamic Quality. Since when did Wittgenstein
have the last say on words and thoughts?
Bo:
You can make this S/O difference as subtle as you wish...and the
objective part as ineffable as you wish, still it is part of SOM's
inexhaustible repertoire.
Paul:
Show me where static/Dynamic appears in "SOM's inexhaustible
repertoire".
Bo:
In the SOL the Quality Idea started as a static intellectual pattern but
proved to be too dynamic for intellectual "safety" and it is now
suspended somewhere off-set to it.
Paul:
Suspended somewhere off-set to what?
> "The Dynamic reality that goes beyond words is the constant focus of
> Zen teaching. Because of their habituation to a world of words,
> philosophers do not often understand Zen.
Bo:
I agree with this, Khoo told that Eastern tradition had their own S/O
tradition, but it did not develop into a SOM like in the West and is
what creates the Kiplingean Chasm (East is East ..etc.) but I don't
see the bearing on our discussion?
Paul:
"Dynamic Quality" is supposed to refer to experience beyond thought, you
think the MOQ, a metaphysics, a structure of thought, an intellectual
pattern, "contains" Dynamic Quality.
Bo:
The description of the emergence of SOM (in ZMM) is forever valid.
Paul:
Pirsig will be pleased to hear this.
Bo:
But Paul, do you still find the "idealist" strategy useful? As said in
this
message I am the first to admit that a fundamental change of outlook
fundamentally changes reality, and maybe the MOQ is a metaphysics
based on the premises that - FROM A SOM p.o.v. - everything is a
human invention/only in our minds
Paul:
It's not an idealist "strategy", I think you've missed the point:
"The problem, the contradiction the scientists are stuck with, is that
of mind. Mind has no matter or energy but they can't escape its
predominance over everything they do. Logic exists in the mind. Numbers
exist only in the mind. I don't get upset when scientists say that
ghosts exist in the mind. It's that only that gets me. Science is only
in your mind too, it's just that that doesn't make it bad." [ZMM Ch.3]
It doesn't make it bad because what creates those thoughts and every
other pattern is experience and experience is reduced to assertions of
value, not to ideas. Subject and object just become words for different
patterns of value, elements in differentiated experience in a background
of undifferentiated aesthetic experience. This "background" is beyond
any metaphysical level you can come up with, it's not contained by any
"Quality Idea" or special way of thinking or talking, quite the
opposite...
"Once you begin to hear the sound of that Quality, see that Korean wall,
that nonintellectual reality in its pure form, you want to forget all
that word stuff, which you finally begin to see is always somewhere
else."
Paul
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