RE: MD Forked tongue

From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Sun Aug 31 2003 - 20:34:13 BST

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    David, I agree with a lot of this, but ...

    You said
    survival IS the purpose at the biological level

    Later you said
    really both just particular expressions of the will of life

    Again I say
    I agree with the latter, but not the former - the emergent effect of
    survival just SEEMS puposeful and we sentient beings conceive of it and name
    it that way, but there is no need to believe any of the steps involved are
    causally influenced by any purpose. The purpose is a human metaphor.

    (Cue debate on causality ?)

    Ian

    -----Original Message-----
    From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
    [mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of David Buchanan
    Sent: 30 August 2003 17:40
    To: 'moq_discuss@moq.org'
    Subject: RE: MD Forked tongue

    Platt, Ian and all MOQers:

    Nicholas Wade:
    "Unfortunately, evolution has no concept of progress, so behavioral
    change is not always for the better."

    Platt said:
    ... a scientist can't get out of bed in the morning without a purpose.

    Ian said:
    My view is there is no evidence the world needs any transcendental purpose
    to be the way we understand it. There is no contracdiction between this view
    and the fact that most humans thrive on s sense of purpose, derived from
    their place in the world as they understand it and their view of how they
    can influence it (for better or worse).

    dmb says:
    As I understand it, Pirsig accepts Darwinian evolution, but expands upon it.
    Survival of the fittest means little more than survival of the survivors,
    which doesn't mean much at all in terms of purpose or progress. I think this
    is saved from nihilism in the MOQ by pointing out that survival IS the
    purpose at the biological level. Progress is marked by life's ability to
    overcome death. But Pirsig's evolutionary morality points out that purpose
    and progress is measured differently at the social and intellectual levels.
    The evolution of the 3rd and 4th level rests upon the success of biology,
    but adds something on top of that purpose.

    Here's a thought. A panel of scientist were discussing reproductive rights
    and specifically the question of when life begins. It began as one would
    imagine. Does it begin at conception, etc? Then one of them pointed out that
    life really one began once and that was billions of years ago. It occured to
    me at that moment that the will of the individual organism and the will of a
    speciies are really both just particular expressions of the will of life
    itself to continue, and that all life forms are thereby connected in this
    purpose.

    Thanks,
    dmb

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