From: SQUONKSTAIL@aol.com
Date: Wed Sep 10 2003 - 17:03:22 BST
part II 10-9-03
RMP:
> The ideal that
> Socrates died for. The ideal that Greece alone possesses for the first
> time in the history of the world. It is still a very fragile thing.'
> The sophists taught excellence, and this included intellectual
> excellence also. But for them intellectual excellence is not an
> immortal principal, for them intellectual excellence is human art.
Skutvik:
Yes, study this. Their artistic skill was a double-edged sword, they
could have used it in defending truth (the immortal principles) but they
argued for argument's sake ...the art of arguing.
squonk: 10-9-03: Quality is an immortal principle of a particularly empirical
nature don't you find? The Tao. The One. Excellence in being. There is no
other truth. The sophists said this all along.
If you want to win an argument using geometric certainty you have to have an
intellectual aesthetic sense of ratio - truth, rationality. It is Rationality
which is a problem, not subjects and objects.
> So,
> today scientists can draw upon a repertoire of human art in geometry,
> which are selected on aesthetic grounds rather than that of truth,
> because your scientific enquiry determines what geometry you choose -
> a choice based on Quality.
Art, aretę, excellence, aesthetics (Value) are at all levels and is
certainly employed in the said way today ...as it was in social reality
by sages and artisans, but can never be affixed to a static level. And
exactly that is your great fault: YOU WANT INTELLECTUAL VALUE
TO BE DYNAMIC!!
squonk: 10-9-03: We can certainly say that Intellectual values are more
Dynamic than social ones because values are migrating towards DQ. The MoQ as an
intellectual pattern is static patterning with a pointer to the Tao. The MoQ
tells us that intellectual patterns are not contained in subjects and objects -
subjects and objects are contained in patterns of value.
> > See also how Protagoras' (the arch Sophist) sentence of "Man the
> > measure of all things" fits with P. of ZMM's attitude of everything
> > being a human invention. Paul however mixes the pre-MOQ Pirsig with
> > the post MOQ one.
> squonk: Protagoras was very much admired by Socrates and Plato for his
> intellect. (Please read The Protagoras by Plato.) Some scholars find
> it exceptionally difficult to delineate between Socrates and
> Protagoras at many points in this dialogue - they appear to agree!
Skutvik:
Then you should complain to Pirsig for his incorrect presentation of
the said conflict.
squonk: 10-9-03: Petulance is not required. There is no need to behave like
Grandpa hiding the TV remote control from the grandkids. Plato had to be very
careful when dealing with Protagoras because The Good is tricky to trifle with w
ithout looking obviously silly. Note Plato wrote a massive amount of allegory
and simile? Embedded in these allegories, and arguably sneaked into the very
structure of the dialogues themselves is geometric form. Quartets of dialogues
- the divided line - its all geometry and number. Immortal principle -
aesthetic creations of the intellect, the newest of a long line of immortal
principles stretching back to water, soul, Gods, Sun, Moon, wind, trees, stones...
> have followed your posts with Paul, and i would be pleased if you
> could remind us all of just exactly where Paul, 'mixes the pre-MOQ
> Pirsig with the post MOQ one.' As far as i can ascertain, you self
> referentially impose your own interpretation onto Paul without
> reference to the work of Robert Pirsig.
Skutvik:
Even if I have done so many times, I will try again in a coming post to
Paul.
squonk 10-9-03: Without the self referential use of terms that only you
approve?
> > Note that intellect's first clash with social value says nothing about
> > how long it may have served as a good social pattern ...helping
> > society grow and prosper. Each time I enter this, it's a tendency (of
> > this group) to either point to "S/O patterns" as impssible ancient as
> > the biological self/non-self, or point to non-S/O phenomena like art,
> > aesthetics, intuition, math. etc. all of which are facets of DYNAMIC
> > VALUE.
> squonk: 'non-S/O phenomena like art, aesthetics, intuition, math. etc.
> all of which are facets of DYNAMIC VALUE.' This is very much like
> saying, 'There are no subjects or objects in the MoQ. I certainly
> sympathise with that!
Thanks Squonk, you are such a perfect "Prügelknabe"
Sincerely
Bo
squonk 10-9-03: Where is that remote control?
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