From: Yale Landsberg (yale_landsberg@yalelands.com)
Date: Fri Sep 12 2003 - 21:06:31 BST
To make my response as suitable as you would like it, please give me your
definition of DQ -- and also your definition of SQ? Thanks, yale
----- Original Message -----
From: "David MOREY" <us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: MD Evolution of levels
> Hi
> could you say something about the relationship of fractals
> to dynamic quality?
>
> DM
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Yale Landsberg" <yale_landsberg@yalelands.com>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 11:08 PM
> Subject: Re: MD Evolution of levels
>
>
> Fair enough. OTOH, consider this: one of the most interesting things
about
> real exploring as compared with the phony-baloney kind is that the more
> unclear and dangerous the territory to be explored, whether darkest Africa
> two centuries ago, or digging down deep into the gold mine of metaphysics,
> the less likely it is that the explorer knows well enough exactly when to
> stop moving along path 1, then which way to turn, and how many steps to
take
> before again exactly stopping on path 2, turning, taking how many steps...
> So iit is highly probable that Patrick van den Berg was not so much
enticed
> as he used and uses a different mode of exploring than you, the mode of
> real explorers who by definition have abolutely no idea of how much effort
> is needed to do their explorations, nor even if they will succeed, and
even
> if they succeeed wil the exploration havebeen worth it? As most
> self-described "explorers" are not risk averse, they are not really
> exploring. In any case, we can all agree that Robert Pirsig was, and (if
he
> is with us) still probably is one of the 20th centuries greatest real
> explorers.. YL
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <abahn@comcast.net>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 11:37 AM
> Subject: Re: MD Evolution of levels
>
>
> > Yale,
> >
> > No problem indeed. But, just to clear something up. I am a dabbler in
> things
> > put to the list that don't entice me to explore them. I am an explorer
of
> areas
> > and ideas I have been enticed to explore.
> >
> > Andy
> > > No problem. It was not written for dabblers like you, but rather
> explorers
> > > like Patrick. yale
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <abahn@comcast.net>
> > > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 8:48 AM
> > > Subject: Re: MD Evolution of levels
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Yale,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, but I'd rather take the easy way out. :-)
> > > >
> > > > Andy
> > > > > From: <abahn@comcast.net>
> > > > > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 5:33 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: MD Evolution of levels
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Yale,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have read your paper. Or more honestly skimmed it. You seem
to
> > > want
> > > > > someone
> > > > > > on the list to confirm your belief that there is a connection
> between
> > > > > Pirsig and
> > > > > > your paper (fractal philosophy). Why don't you just tell us
about
> the
> > > > > > connection instead of making us needlessly wait in suspense.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > merely suggesting,
> > > > > > Andy
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Andy, the Fractal Philosophy paper at
> http://yalelands.com/frph.pdf
> > > is
> >
> > > > > meant to be read and commented upon by professional and amateur
> > > philosophers
> > > > > willing to bet some time (expend their to to hopefully get some
> > > worthwhile
> > > > > reward.)
> > > > >
> > > > > And I am sugesting that there is a lot in it about some interest
> aspects
> > > of
> > > > > hierarchies of levels and levels of hierarchies.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rather than keep you in suspense about where it might be sympatico
> with
> > > MoQ,
> > > > > permit me to reference comments by one of your memebers who
actually
> > > took
> > > >
> > > > > the time to read and reflect upon it, instead of looking for the
> easy
> > > way
> > > > > out....
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Yale,
> > > > >
> > > > > It was yours, the article? Then my apologies for my harsh comment
at
> the
> > > > > beginning at the post about 'the author'. Uhm, let me put it more
> mildly
> > > > > what I said: the old Greek philosophers used this
> dialogue-technique, in
> > > > > which it was true that the writer assumed rather naieve and
'stupid'
> > > > > commenters. The technique you used addresses the reader directly,
> which
> >
> > > > > has the advantage that it can create a more personal touch, but in
> many
> > > > > cases I did't assume the stance you ascribed to your potential
> readers.
> > > > > And true, the recurring suggestions about the assumed stance of
the
> > > > > reader kind of irritated me (which left the reader stupid and the
> author
> > > > > smart!). Anyhow, your style of writing was original and playful.
> Thus,
> > > > > the attempt had DQ, but the it didn't lead (in my humble opinion)
to
> a
> > > > > static quality-form it potentially could have.
> > > > > ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > All the best, Patrick.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear YL,
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > The pdf-file was interesting, although the ego-blown style of the
> author
> > > > > irritated me. It does have similarities with Pirsig seeing Lila.
In
> the
> > > > > café he notices she notices that he is watching her, and she
notices
> > > > > that he notices that she notices he is watching her, etc. ad
> infinitum.
> > > > > Like standing between two mirrors, you have a reflection of a
> reflection
> >
> > > > > of a reflection. The fellow of this pdf-file applies a similar
> strategy.
> > > > >
> > > > > Two things I found particularly interesting:
> > > > > The first is that he uses a mathematical metaphor of the seemingly
> ease
> > > > > of going away from a spot: Any direction is adequate, north, west,
> south
> > > > > or inbetween. Finding a good alternative narrows you options
> > > > > considerably, however. The place you want to go is either north or
> south
> > > > > or another particular direction. What Pirsig says about the
> > > > > hippie-movement is that the hippies were good at walking away from
> the
> > > > > center of the western culture of the sixties- they didn't,
however,
> know
> > > >
> > > > > where to turn to. That's why the movement virtually bleeded to
> death.
> > > > >
> > > > > The second thing I found interesting was the notion of aming at
> turning
> > > > > towards turning towards something. It has a relation with the
> concept
> > > > > of free will. What does it mean to turn your attention to
something
> (to
> >
> > > > > will something)? In order to do that, you have to change your
> thinking
> > > > > from this to that (to the topic you want to focus on). And how do
> you
> > > > > initiate this change? By accelareting from some zero-point, so
that
> you
> > > > > can accomplish an amount of changing your attention. But how do
you
> > > > > start to accelerate? By starting to accelerate you acceleration.
> This
> > > > > leads to an obvious paradox. How is it ever possible to turn your
> > > > > attention towards something? How is free will possible? (This is a
> > > > > version of psychology's homunculi, by the way)
> > > > >
> > > > > The notion of a fractal philosophy is quite big and interesting.
> > > > > Relating such a big idea to the whole edifice of the MoQ seems to
me
> > > >
> > > > > daunting. Nevertheless interesting. Maybe cartesian philosophy
(SOM)
> > > > > tries to zoom in on a fractal- hoping someday to see the ultimate
> > > > > building blocks! Pirsig would say: Hey, you're just going in one
> > > > > possible direction. There are others, not only by 'zooming in' but
> by
> >
> > > > > staying at one level and walk around there, or better: zoom in a
bit
> but
> > > > > going to the 'left' simultanously. (Fits into another metaphor of
> > > > > Pirsig: His idea of a chaqautua meaning to deepen the riverpaths
of
> our
> > > > > behaviors, instead of creating new ones only to end up in one
> shallow
> > > > > homogenous river.)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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