From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Thu Sep 18 2003 - 19:30:45 BST
To agree with Sam
the great thing about the levels is that you can say yeah its good on that
level and bad on another. So you get decide that you will go one way and pay
the price on a certain level. EG study philosophy and enjoy lots of reading
against never going out eveer again socially -only joking.
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Norton" <elizaphanian@tiscali.co.uk>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: MD The Simpleminds at work
> Hi Gert-Jan,
>
> I sympathise with your perspective. We're hoping to get the MF group back
up and running before too
> long so that some of the more involved debates have a more suitable home.
In the meantime, the best
> way to make sure the MD group isn't too intimidating is to do exactly what
you've done - start up a
> thread about your own concerns. On which topic, my two pennies:
>
> > There are some subjects that made me wonder, where I need your opinions.
> >
> > 1. I am a school teacher (children from 4 to 13) - I often get the urge
to
> > teach them the MoQ. Would it be wise? How would you do it?
>
> Start from an understanding of 'good and bad' or even 'better and worse'.
I wouldn't worry too much
> about the levels at the early ages - that could probably come in a bit
later on - but the key idea
> that value is the primary "stuff" from which all else flows - and that
there is better and worse -
> should be teachable, surely? (you might even want to call it 'God'.....
;o)
>
> > 2. I regularly find myself trying to explain the moq to others (friends
> > during beer) How do you do it? What do you tell them?
>
> Don't know. Haven't really tried it.
>
> > 3. I have great troubles giving grades to creative works the children
make.
> > Can the MoQ be a help allthough pirsig wouldn't allow it? If yes?
Enlighten
> > me?
>
> I would be in favour - but then I think there are (or should be) agreed
standards within a
> discipline, whatever it is. So a discipline needs to be learned before it
can be experimented with
> creatively and freely. (The student follows the rules. The rebel breaks
the rules - but is still
> defined by them. The creative transcend the rules)
>
> > 4. Do some of you try to implement the MoQ into psychology (or ectually
the
> > other way around that is)?
>
> Only in an informal way - I like to pick out social level thinking (or at
least what seems so to me,
> from my great vantage point of knowing everything ;-) There are some
people here who at one point
> were looking at relating the MoQ to Eriksson, Maslow etc. The Wilber fans
might have more to say on
> that - not being one I can't really comment.
>
> > 5. If philosophy is of high intellectual quality, why get children?
>
> Because the higher levels do not negate the lower, they depend upon them
for their existence. If we
> were so caught up in intellectual rapture that we ceased to eat, the
intellectual rapture would
> cease. I would say that we need to flourish on all the levels at once (see
my 'eudaimonic' paper on
> the website), only that there needs to be a harmony around the highest
Quality.
>
> > 6. Is a religion a social pattern of values? And if these patterns are
not
> > of high quality anymore in a culture, why teach children that religion
> > anyway?
>
> This, as you would expect, is a highly contentious question! It all
depends on what you mean by
> 'religion'.... the people who gather and do things together on a Sunday
morning (or Friday or
> Saturday or whenever?). That's pretty social. The mystic off pursuing
their vision of God? Pretty
> dynamic really. The theologian closeted in the ivory tower debating
whether Aquinas or Ockham was
> the more profound thinker - that's fourth level IMHO.
>
> As for teaching the children, I would go back to what I said above - you
can't have the highest
> levels without the ones below flourishing as well. I see story as the
'spine' of the third level (in
> both metaphysical 'story' and religious 'story' terms) - so I don't think
you can get away without
> telling children stories which make sense of the world. We just have to
thrash out which stories
> have the highest Quality.
>
> > 7. Why is a policeman allowed to hit a hooligan, but is a teacher not
> > allowed to hit a kid that the teacher can't reach intellectually or
social?
> > And why was it allowed in the old days? What should a teacher do, if he
> > doesn't want to use this biological jungle-language?
>
> I think this is what Pirsig talks about in Lila, re the policeman and
soldier? The issue is: does
> society ultimately depend upon violence to exist? The MoQ says yes.
>
> > 8. Would it change our feelings about the whole MoQ if Pirsig appeared
to be
> > an ugly child-molesting sigar smoking bold woman? (like one of Roald
Dahls
> > witches)
>
> Shouldn't, but it probably would.
>
> > 8. When did the intellecual level started - The old greek - the
> > renaissance - the sixties ?
>
> Again - this is greatly debated. I think there wasn't a clear cut start
point. In particular I think
> it depends upon a certain degree of economic and social sophistication to
be held in place. Most
> people would think Athens had an intellectual life I think.
>
> > 10. Is it moral to have an opinion about a President without living in
his
> > country? (looking at Culture A using the values of Culture B)
>
> Yes. To say otherwise is to say that there is no universal scale of
values - which I think the MoQ
> would deny (even if it would also say that anyone who claims
authoritatively 'I have found the
> TRUTH' etc should be treated with suspicion..)
>
> > 11. Can I tell you all Gandi was a great guy using my $2000,- computer?
>
> I think so. Gandhi wanted to affirm the values of his culture, and he was
quite happy to have the
> dhoti and spinning wheel. I think there is a nihilistic rejection of
wealth in some counter-cultural
> programmes, which (IMHO) Gandhi wouldn't have bought into. He didn't like
greed, of course, but I'm
> not sure that 'voluntary simplicity' necessarily rejects the computer age.
Is your computer a tool
> or a toy? Does your use of it bring Quality into your life?
>
>
> Thanks for the questions.
>
> Sam
>
>
>
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