From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Sep 28 2003 - 18:58:53 BST
Andy and all Pragmatists:
Andy said:
I regret this announcement but effective immediately I am resigning as your
official Rorty translator. It is obvious I am no qualified for the
position.
You have set your standards too high.
dmb says:
Really? I'm sad about that. Thanks for trying.
Andy said:
You are a Campbell fan. Not only that, but you have read enough of him to
consider yourself an expert. Now suppose someone said to me "I don't get it?
Please translate 'follow your bliss' for me." This would be my best effort.
dmb says:
Expert? No, I'm just a fan. But I'm glad you brought it up because this is
an excellent analogy. The phrase "follow your bliss" is so much of a slogan
that one is likely to lietally see it on a bumber sticker. And without an
explanation I'd say that it's worse than trite. It has been taken to mean
pretty much the same as "if it feels good, do it" or "whatever floats your
boat". But as a fan I'd be happy to explain it to anyone who asked. I guess
my frustration with Rorty and Pragmatism comes from the assumption that
everyone feels that way about their intellectual heros; that they'd be happy
to explain away the trite interpretations and replace it with the version
that made them into a fan in the first place. I love to do that, but so far
it appears that each Rorty fan only resents such questions. I honestly don't
get that.
Andy continued:
...One criticism they might make, following you, would be to say, "Really?
well what is so profound about that? I mean isn't this obvious that
everyone should just do what they like? Hello? ah, Duhhhh."
dmb says:
Right. This is why I asked if you could explain why some posters think
Rorty's slogan is so meaningful. If I provided an explanation of Campbell's
most famous slogan and the student got so provided got the impression that
it only means that we should just do what they like, I'd consider that a
failure. I suppose its no accident that this is almost exactly why Pirsig
wrote Lila; because too many ZAMM readers were left with the impression that
Quality is just whatever we like. Without a proper explanation, both Pirsig
and Campbell can be seen as painfully trite. It seems like a major part of
the task in a forum such as this is to dispell such misconceptions.
Andy said:
If you reduce any philosophy down to literal translations of slogans it
will be boring and superficial. But, I have not gotten this feeling from
reading Rorty or James. THis is the problem when we bring philosophys to
the
table. We have to reduce them down. But I am not even sure what pragmatism
is. I mean I know a few slogans like "more useful" and "substituting hope
for
knowledge", but when I bring these to the table I have to leave most of
pragmatism behind.
dmb says:
Exactly. These slogan are pithy little reductions of what is in fact a long
train of thought. But for those who have never seen that long train, the
slogans don't mean very much and can even be quite misleading.
Andy said:
So if you say pragmatism manages to be more boring and superficial than
utilitarianism I have to cop out. My translations are bound to be boring to
you. If we had some common things which we read to talk about it might be
different.
dmb says:
But, but, but Pragmatism is about the only thing we DON'T have in common. We
both have read Pirsig, etc. I would have thought that there is enough common
ground that we should be able to explain ANY idea to each other. And I have
to say that it is not the translation that I find underwhelming, it is the
actual content of Rorty's ideas. Unless you are Rorty disguised as Andy, I
don't think you should take it personally.
Andy said:
But instead of going out and reading something someone might bring to the
table you ask for translations. Or you search the internet for reviews
and critiques. I know there is not enough time in the day. We all have to
choose the best way to fill our time. But, if you want to probe, you have
to do some effort also. I can't translate anymore. Regretfully (or not),
dmb says:
Right. There is only so much time. There is more to read than I'll ever be
able to handle in a lifetime. And life is too short to pursue other people's
interests. But I'd still like some kind of help with this stuff. A few
people here seem to think its worthwhile, and I really like to know why.
I guess I have to accept your resignation, but would ask about this
particular slogan just one more time. Here it is; WHY DO WE NEED TO
SUBSTITUTE KNOWLEDGE FOR HOPE? I mean, WHY CAN'T WE HAVE BOTH? This question
might seem like I'm just searching for some trivial reason to criticize the
slogan, but let me assure you that this is not the case. I honestly don't
see the point and ask only because I'd like to understand. And if its any
consolation at all, your translation has at least allowed to to understand
what kinds of isssues the slogan refers to. I had not understood that Rorty
is talking about politics. Thanks to you, I can sort of see what the topic
of this discussion is.
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